Susan Hackett, Senior Vice President of the Association of Corporate Counsel was on CNBC last Thursday touting the Clutch Group and the outsourcing of legal work to India. The sucking sound of American legal jobs being drained out of the country is only getting louder. If you are still in law school, you should seriously consider dropping out. If are currently in the profession and haven't devised an exit strategy yet, you need to do so immediately. The awful recessionary torture chambers won't be around for much longer. Take advantage of them while you can, enroll in night school, and learn a hard trade.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1108402386&play=1
71 comments:
Anyone who thinks this is a long term temporary downturn is either hopelessly delusional, or someone like Joan King who knows the deal but is attempting to drain you for all you are worth.
The CNBC girl is hot.
The CNBC girl lights up when she discusses that prodigy from Clutch. What a slut. The guy is sending middle class jobs out of the country and destroying lives and she is having an orgasm over him on national television. It's disgusting.
The Indian dude is probably boinking her...
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How's this for some business jargon:
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"Execution center"??? Is that where they guillotine the American temp attorneys?
Getting back to swine for a moment, I couldn't help but comment about how much Susan Hackett resembles the three depicted at the header of the last article here. She could be their sister.
She is pretty homely looking.
I watched the CNBC video, and all I heard were generalities. There were no revelations; I saw nothing good or bad for the prosepects of US lawyers, including doc reviewers.
Look what she says in this article:
Billing rate for a typical U.S. associate doing document review: $200 an hour.
Billing rate for a contract attorney doing the same work: $70 an hour.
Billing rate for a lawyer in India doing that work: $25, maybe $35 an hour.
That’s what SQ Global Solutions, a New York-based company that outsources legal work to India, is marketing to law firms eager to bring down the cost of work such as document review.
Alan Gershowitz, a former Skadden attorney now leading the company, says they count among their clients several firms in the Am Law top 50.
“They’re using the Indian attorneys the same way they’d use a temp attorney on a large litigation project with hundreds of thousands of documents to review,” he said. “It’s becoming a replacement for temp attorneys.”
Susan Hackett, the general counsel of the Association of Corporate Counsel, said the tide is changing when it comes to in-house attorneys looking into this option.
“A lot of people are interested in exploring it,” she said. “About a year ago if you asked, people would have said, ‘we need more assurances,’” she said. “I think there’s much more of a sense this is a legit option to pursue."
That’s partly due to companies reporting good experiences with such services, she said.
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:DJT92Iiwd8sJ:legalpad.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/10/is-biglaw-ready.html+susan+hackett+outsourcing&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
12:03 AM
Read between the lines.
They had two guests. One was saying that there are too many lawyers doing unnecessary work that can be done by someone else, and the other one was saying that lawyers charge too much.
Summary: there should less lawyer related work and they shouldn't be charging so much.
Short summary: "Dear Lawyer, GTFO"
Anyone who believes what Clutch, which sells outsourcing, has to say about outsourcing is a complete moron.
yeah, i trust what someone from clutch says about clutch
I've heard that many clients are requiring that only contract attorneys review their documents now, as the billing rate for first- and second-year associates is much higher and they are less competent to do the same work. I've started to get more calls from agencies for work, albeit short-term projects.
Anyone that outsources attorney is a traitor. The ABA must reverse its position immediately.
OSWALD - Outsourcing Steals Work from American Lawyers Daily.
12:16
"Billing rate for a contract attorney doing the same work: $70 an hour.
Billing rate for a lawyer in India doing that work: $25, maybe $35 an hour."
So if the Indian attorneys get paid $5 an hour, the outsourcing agency keeps $20-30 per hour.
If the American temp attorney gets paid $35 an hour, the outsourcing company keeps $35.
And remember, apart from labor costs which are very low, most of the other costs of running an Indian outsourcing operation are very high compared to running projects in the US.
So where's the big profit in outsourcing?
Sure, it's competitive in the marketplace, because the savings to the law firms are big.
But once the LPOs get the job, their profit margins are no higher than agencies running projects in the US.
925 is right i think, there are a number of small projects, though about half i have been called for have required interviews (i was told i was new to doc review despite having 3 years experience by a person interviewing me) and about a third have been postponed or canceled for various reasons...
because the reviews are so much shorter and overall fewer in number there is a constant stream of super perma temps for firms to choose from
10:16
The shorter reviews are probably ones that would have been done in-house by associates or paralegals previously.
A lot of the longer ones may have gone to India.
Because the law firms have gouged these clients for years and now they've found the way to get back - have untrained foreigners undercut them on price.
Any way you slice it, this spells doom for the legal profession. It's a race to the gutter baby! The era of the gilded associate is over. With the socialist Obama administration "spreading the wealth" brigher students are going to be strongly discouraged from enterining business and the private sector and instead volunteering or working for Uncle Sam.
Law firms as we know it will scarcely exist in the next 10 years. The legal profession is being drained of its power and influence, along with Wall Street.
The power has shifted from private corporations and NYC to the government and DC. Adapt or die!
we are fucked.
disgusting corporate media propaganda. Hang them all for treason (after a fair trial, of course..)
I like the part where the temp tries to justify his existence by saying that he's more qualified than an associate to do doc review.
Sure, you've been coding documents in a basement for years, but it's still something that a monkey could be trained to do in 10 minutes.
Good News everyone, Bag-o-gasso is hiring again, at only $29 per hour!
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Reply to: job-qyxya-1153682453@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Date: 2009-05-04, 11:27AM EDT
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•Location: New Jersey
•Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
•Please, no phone calls about this job!
•Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
Barasso has used every agency over the past several months to staff their positions. Their turn over rate is horrible. They can go fuck themselves.
Man, this outsourcing could provoke another French Revolution against these elites/traitors.
Uhm- this is CNBC. Why not just put up a quote from the Onion if you are going for humor on this site now?
Enough with the silly outsourcing farce already. So many are out of work here because biglaw has been hit hard. There is no way that we could not be affected while thousands of associates have been fired for lack of work. What we have not been getting has gone mainly to the remaining associates, who have nothing else to do. Work is coming back to us. There is a definite increase in short-term projects. If you haven't gotten any of these yet, you probably will very soon.
8:06pm
"Work is coming back to us. There is a definite increase in short-term projects."
Work is not coming back to us. You have no proof whatsoever for making such a statement.
I wasn't working and now I am. That's my proof. It's good enough for me.
Great you landed a two shit gig. Congrats!
I'm glad the jobs are going to India. The firms put us up in sweatshops and stopped giving us dinner. Read previous threads about how we've been mistreated.
Let othersabroad get treated like that! Let's see how much they like working without car service home.
Finally!
FEED THE PIGGGGGGGGG
I've heard the demands at Quislex and the other Indian sweatshops are increasing. They are demanding bowls of fresh curry ever two hours.
Not to mention rickshaws home after 8 pm. The temps are thinking of unionizing in India. The Indian government agrees, something must done to raise working standards at these gutter sweatshops.
The are also requesting to have rooms made available where they can purify and drink their own urine.
11:05 you are a disgrace. and your not even funny. If you are going to be an asshole, try being a funny asshole.
11:05 is just an ignorant bigot looking for some ethnic group to scapegoat. Why blame anyone in a sweatshop for taking a job they are offered anyway?
Any outsourcing that is being done is the fault of the bar associations and participating clients. Outsourcing is not the big factor some posters (and Tom) think it is. The problem is that law firms have had so little work that they have dumped so many associates. Those associates used to think they had permanent jobs, now they're unemployed. If we were the only ones with problems finding work, it would make sense to think it was outsourcing. Nationwide, thousands and thousands of attorneys at biglaw have lost their jobs, so it is really clear that the problem is not something limited to us - the big problem is the economy not outsourcing. Biglaw is not farming out nearly so much of the work, the associates who are still there are doing most of it.
The stock market has been getting better and there are more small projects around. Of course, it isn't the same or enough yet, but the doc review market has started to improve.
822-
its impossible to provide proof on an anonymous blog, but i can tell you i have received inquiries for 7 different projects over the past month from 2 different agencies. i didnt receive one call in the two months before that.
seems like a sign to me.
7:48 - the reason there is no work is because it is being outsourced. You are using circular logic and are saying nothing to disprove that outsourcing is stealing jobs from Americans.
During the last recession there was work all over the place with bottom feeding lawsuits. Where's the work?
Sure, there are drips and drabs, but about 1/10 of what should be flodding the NYC market.
It's very clear the corporations are using the outsourced legal services as a way to fight back against the law firms and reduce costs, so their executives can fly on private jets and buy houses in Aspen. It's a disgrace.
Outsourcing is a boondoggle, and at the end of the day, doesn't save that much money.
The smart law firms know that they need JDs doing this work. You get what you pay for.
During the last recession thosands of associates did not get fired due to lack of work at biglaw. That's the difference. The law firms don't have enough work for associates so they don't need extras to do the doc review. That's the difference. Biglaw hasn't been recession-proof this time. That's the difference.
8:40 - How many of those projects actually happened? How many calls were duplicative, with two or more agencies calling to line up staffing for the same business they were trying to get in?
10:32 - so that's new propagana being spun by Marc Ross, David Perla, Cluth and Quislex?
It is poorly conceived and incorrect - flat out lies. These monsters want nothing short of the destruction of the American Legal Industry. And the assholes at the ABA go right along with it! What a bunch of greedy bastards.
The reason the associates have no doc review is because it's being performed in India! Talk about circuluar logic...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/06/business/global/06tax.html?ref=global
no more loopholes for outsourcing?
"this spells doom for the legal profession"
So "the legal profession" is a bunch of gigantic firms? Right - just like NYC is the center of the universe and the entire rest of the US is just flyover country. You people need to get out more and meet the rest of the profession.
Oh, sorry, I forgot - if you can't be an associate making six figures from day 1, there's absolutely nothing else you can do as a lawyer! Wahhhh! Whatever will you doooo?
The sooner you self-absorbed idiots leave the profession, the better.
1:49 - get back to Bangalore.
But Obama may doing something to combat outsourcing, but perhaps will not help lawyers...
From the wsj,
By JOHN D. MCKINNON
WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama's plan to revamp international tax rules stirred opposition from many multinational businesses and questions among a few leading lawmakers. But even if the proposal doesn't advance rapidly, policy makers said a broader corporate-tax overhaul is becoming increasingly likely over the next two years.
Mr. Obama, speaking in the White House grand foyer Monday, vowed to push forward with his plan, which would curb some of the biggest overseas tax advantages enjoyed by multinationals. He said it was a way to restore fundamental fairness while also encouraging more U.S.-based jobs.
Barack Obama
.The U.S. tax code has made it "all too easy for a...small number of individuals and companies to abuse overseas tax havens, to avoid paying any taxes at all," the president said. "And it's a tax code that says you should pay lower taxes if you create a job in Bangalore, India, than if you create one in Buffalo, New York."
Sen. Max Baucus (D., Mont.), chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, said further study is needed to determine the impact of the plan on U.S. businesses. "I want to make certain that our tax policies are fair and support the global competitiveness of U.S. businesses," he said. One question committee staff is exploring is how abusive some of the corporate tax practices are.
Several other Senate Democrats, including Carl Levin of Michigan, were more supportive. As a senator, Mr. Obama had co-sponsored legislation with Mr. Levin that attempted to crack down on offshore tax abuses. Rep. Charles Rangel (D., N.Y.), chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, said the Obama plan would strengthen investment and job creation in the U.S.
From the Archives
Titans Vow Overseas-Tax Fight
4/22/09
.The White House plan has three main elements affecting businesses. It would curb corporations' ability to park their overseas business earnings indefinitely outside the U.S. and avoid U.S. taxes, a practice known as deferral. The plan would change the legal treatment of many international subsidiaries that companies have used to shift earnings into low-tax offshore havens. And it would put new limits on corporations' ability to use offshore subsidiaries to generate unjustified foreign-tax credits.
White House officials said the plan is an attempt to reduce the role of small tax-haven countries that have eroded the tax bases of developed countries such as the U.S.
Business groups on Monday warned that Mr. Obama's plan would eliminate American jobs, not add them. They said the current rules are aimed primarily at putting U.S. companies on an equal tax footing with international rivals, many of which benefit from favorable tax treatment by their home countries.
"The overseas operations of U.S. multinational companies support jobs and higher living standards here at home," said John Castellani, president of the Business Roundtable, an association of chief executives of major corporations.
Such an argument could appeal to lawmakers who will be weighing the Obama proposal -- and who are concerned about employment rates in their home districts during the economic downturn.
A Treasury official said the administration's plan also aims to right an imbalance created by U.S. tax policy between multinationals and the small businesses that generate the bulk of American jobs but generally don't qualify for these tax breaks.
A coalition of business associations and corporations, known as PACE, or Promote America's Competitive Edge, also criticized the Obama plan. It announced the establishment of a Web site, www.pace4jobs.org, as a source for information on corporate tax issues.
.Several congressional aides and other observers said the Obama corporate-tax plan could provide the basis for a broad corporate-tax overhaul, given the deep federal budget deficits expected in the next couple of years. "We've put ourselves in a fiscal hole so deep it's hard to comprehend, so we're going to have a major tax debate sooner or later," said business tax lobbyist Ken Kies. "My guess is that these [Obama proposals] will be considered in that context."
White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs termed the proposal "a down payment on longer-term tax reform" that the administration already is considering. Businesses hope to win a lower corporate rate in exchange for curbs on overseas breaks in an overhaul.
Some of Mr. Obama's ideas could be implemented this year, some observers said, particularly as Congress searches for revenue later this year to offset the costs of initiatives, such as extending expiring tax breaks for research, fixing the muddled estate tax, or possibly expanding health care.
Write to John D. McKinnon at john.mckinnon@wsj.com
the obama plan regarding tax havens does not go far enough. it leaves several of the more effective havens in place.
What are you guys complaining about? According to this NLJ article, now is the BEST time to be a contract world!
"Downturn May Have an Upside for Contract Attorneys"
http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter/lawArticleCareerCenter.jsp?id=1202430434838
Is anyone else suffering from penal disfunction since the decrease in doc review jobs? I find without the daily temptation of some doc review cuttey swishing there ass in front of me all day I just can't seem to get it up as well.
Please let me know your thoughts, you can reach me at davidK@inthecloset.com
to 6:29: dude, if you are going to attempt to be funny, at least learn to spell and write a proper sentence.
"disfunction"?? try "dysfunction"
"cuttey"?? try "cutie"
you're embarrassing yourself
Plenty of penal dysfucntion in the basement here at S&C. Its clearly evident from the size of the egos on the TTT losers "supervising" (i.e. playing solitaire and watching movies). If you like docreview ass Tracy J can swish her ghetto booty with the best of them, that may turn you on if you can get past the frankenstein face.
penile you click monkey morons
You guys should check out who these India based companies actually hire over there. Do you know what the requirements are to be considered an Indian lawyer?
Bar Council of India -
http://www.indlii.org/Bar%20Council%20of%20India.aspx
The course of study and requirements are actually much more rigorous than in the US.
What with all the people here writing words like "penal" for "penile", "permenant" for "permanent", etc., it doesn't say too much about American TTT law schools and our subprime law degrees!
I am an associate at a large firm and I want to let you guys know that we are no longer using several agencies including Update and Hudson because of the terrible work that we found that the document review attorneys had done. It was unconscionable.
Haha! Right their undergrad degrees are so great, from their festering toilet educational system. Another pile of garbage.
They aren't JDs aren't licensed to practice law in the US. It's pretty simple really.
To compare the first world educational system to the third world Indian diploma mills is a joke and a fraud. I'm sure they have their "harvard" but you can take the rest of it. My local community college or DeVry is far better.
More importantly, they aren't trained in the US Legal system. Are these half-baked assertions and mud-slinging the best you can come up with?
oh really 10:47? dont you know all the agencies all pull from basically the same pool of attorneys? just do your job and QC during the project instead of after..
...and dont be such a dick to the coders
10:47 is just roach boy, the same person that has taunted the temps on this blog for years. His attitude towards temps is the unconscionable behavior.
10:47 is a sub-moronic troll
Hey 10:47,
I fucker your dad while your mom watched. Then I fucker her. She says my cock feels better than yours. When the last time you fucked her because she was so horny. She loves coder cock as much as your dad.
I bet your girlfriend can't get off with you either.
You pick a place and time motherfuker. I'll carve your ads up
carving up ads with penal disfunction. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! This is why I am done with doc review.
I think some of y'all are drunk when you post.
12:50 they are some of the S&C lifers who obviously were picked on the merits. ROFL. The S&C lifers aren't all like that but some are.
anybody ever worked for merrill corp? the agency, not the lynch.
I'm an associate at the NY office of a V25 firm and I would like to comment on your current employment situation:
HAha hahaah hahah hahah hahaha ha ha ha!
I heard they're from DC and new to the market, so they may be OK. However, they may be taking anything they can get at the moment, so that means in may be a psycho project.
It probably wouldn't hurt to sent them your resume and see what they say. What do you have to lose if you're not working and would like to be?
Regardless, looks like the market is picking up.
10:47, is that you Alex FaGallard?
You aren't an associate now and you never will be. You are delusional! You need to stop smoking cock in that dark room and step out into reality.
Put a gun to your head 5:19 P.M. like the other BigLaw suicides.
I'm a Partner at a BigLaw firm in NYC... I'm writing this from the firm's private jet, which I'm taking to my villa in Bora-Bora (I'm flying from Bangalore, where I just set up another LPO, offering stock to a select group of BigLaw partners)... We'll suck the lifeblood out of you TTT scum yet!!! And now I take another sip of my Chateau Poulenc '58, and munch on some foie-gras.
Hahahahahha!!!!!
is that you the DILUTED Mr GayLLard speaking from the Mcdonalds Balcony hahahhahhahhahahhaha Back at you ALeXSuaAssHoleAAAAAA... How is the Mcfoie-gras.... you major SOB piece of wife cheating shittttttt. Nina, you reading,,,, I hear you still are with the prickless
yay! I'm glad we don't have any jobs. I'm glad the US economy is based on the race to the bottom and screwing each other to raise the profit margin at the top! yippeee! I'm glad my law degree with honors from a top school and my time slaving away from law review has me considering jobs that pay a few bucks more than my friend who is still working on her BA.
From the ABA Journal,"A Death in the Office," about Mark Levy's suicide at Kilpatrick, Stockton:
"One of his clients was the Association of Corporate Counsel, a Washington-based trade group for lawyers who work at major corporations—precisely the sort of paying customers that law firms covet.
Levy did work for the association, once preparing a brief on the sanctity of the attorney-client privilege during the investigation of the suicide of former White House lawyer Vince Foster. But he never sought to tap into the rich vein of its membership base.
“He never asked me, ‘Can I come and speak at your annual meeting in front of your members so I can get a better opportunity?’ ” says ACC general counsel Susan Hackett.
“He never asked for anything in return,” beyond the minimal fees he got directly from the association, she says, adding that “people like me got to take advantage of Mark’s incredible service.” "
Susan Hackett's one compassionate, ethical professional, isn't she?
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