Another interesting "job opportunity" being passed around the contract attorney listservs. Are ATL readers so bored with Elie Mystal that they are now resorting to cooking up fake job ads to torture out of work contract attorneys, while they sit in their offices and twiddle their thumbs?
“A major Wall Street white-shoe firm representing numerous high-profile clients across a variety of interesting practice areas has decided to rescind all summer associateship offers for the 2009 summer. Although these future attorneys are all highly qualified and hail from USN&WR Top Ten Firms, we feel that aiding such perennially socially-advantaged people in this economic climate would be contrary to the wave of populism sweeping our nation. In conjunction with this move, we are excited to announce that we will be offering these positions instead to 50 attorneys presently employed as contract attorneys (also known in some firms as 'Document Reviewers', 'JD Reviewers', 'Temps', 'Lifers', 'TTT Bozos', 'S***law Scum', 'Tempie Weirdo A**holes', and various other titles). Having observed the work product of these fine unsung heroes of the legal system’s seedy underbelly over the many years during which we have shamelessly exploited them and their desperation to make the kind of money needed to pay their oppressive student loans, yet also to afford them a lifestyle that their TTT education would not otherwise afford, we have concluded that these persons are the most highly qualified applicants we could possibly hope for.
As such, we are inviting any contract attorneys with at least 1 year of document review experience to apply for this exciting and unprecedented opportunity."
177 comments:
hey listen up guys, everybody needs to take a minute and clean their work areas, uh huh huh, okay . So everybody get some wipes and pass them along, okay. And be ready we have some docs coming down the pipe.
hahahaha!!!
okay, everybody for every hour over three hundred worked you get an extra entry in the raffle drawing for a big screen. Okay. Let's thank the client they really care. Mm, okay. We, uh huh ,
Listen up everybody, can I get everyones attention for a minute. Couple of coding changes, first if you have not Bern fisted yet raise your hand so I can do a quick head count. Okay, great. Next if you were wondering about memorial day, raise your hand if you have been fisted.
and be sure to get some pizza. How's the pizza today?
Such a strange post. Why the need to slander and berate contract attorneys. Such gratuitous, cheap shots.
What assholes!
I need everybody ready there is more coming down the pipe.
So okay be ready. Plenty coming down the pipe.
You know, you all are bringing back sweet memories of my favorite project! Ode to David King and Vlad, and all the team leads...where are they now I wonder? Remember when you had to decide whether you could do 90 hours that week! GOOD TIMES!
listen up everybody, the client has decided that if you work 100 hours in 2 days you will get a $5.43 bonus! Great news huh! Now as a few more coding change, if you are
is that dave king as the clown? Oops, was that an oxymoron?
can someone explain sudoko to me? I mean who put that opium on the street.
Soduko makes me feel smart.
are you sure you meant to use the word oxymoron?
listen, as a professional attorney doing document review dressed in my finest business casual this fine Friday I fine this needless lamponing unecessary. It is a beautiful day today here in Mumbai.
Time for a new topic: "Thighmaster...neither a thigh, nor a master, tawk amongst youselves!"
What' the difference between a doc reviewer and a puppy?
associates will pick up a puppy's shit
What's the difference between a doc reviewer and a pu
Pigeon? Well you can't eat pigeon.
What's the difference between a doc reviewer and a peanut? Big law partners like peanuts
Where's jarod?
That dude! He was o' AK!
I like waiting for a job.
I want to work.
work is really fun
waiting around
makes me feel dumb
my student debt just grows bigger
my brain is dead
want to pull my finger?
The real unemployment rate? Try 15.6%
what's the difference between doc review and scratching my balls?
I can still scratch my balls!
There was a time
when coffee was free
pizza on Fridays
and hoagies too
overtime Sundays
and much point clicking to do
now here I stand bereft and agrieved
can't believe I was sucked into doc review
I feel so deceieved
For while I worked for peanuts
a small "av rated" practice
at least they were real peanuts
and not the ghost of pizza filling
a virtual stomach
The ghost of that pizza is with me still.
HEY DENOVO!
quit F'ing around trying to get new doc reviewers and get me a on a project!
did you all know a few of the Update ladies are on twitter now?
going from temp to real position is not truly possible.. i have seen a rare few do it though....
need to get back to eating curry and document reviewing..
get me some update ladies!!!!
I wack off thinking about them
12:58-- LMAO!
De Novo has a job starting on Monday. You didn't hear it from me.
It's $40 per hour for 40 hour weeks. Only the supreme A listers have it, though.
11:42 - You can eat pigeon. Just go chinatown.
1:44 The supreme A listers meaning the select few who do nothing but bulk code and stuff their faces but get called anyway because they are the pets.
The way projects have been going lately those 40 hour weeks will probably really turn out to be 12 hours for the whole project.
I've heard of some projects being extended. You just have to get on one of the more sophistacated jobs. They crap jobs have been sent to India.
The crap jobs are here. Very little is in India. You want crap, go to Westfield. The "extended" projects here are mainly on again off again nightmares.
*******************************************************************************************************************
Major Plaintiff’s Securities Class Action firm seeks temporary attorneys for a 1-2 month securities document review. Need 2-5 years of document review and securities class action experience.
Candidates must be a qualified, admitted NYS attorney in good standing. EXTENSIVE CHECKS WILL BE DONE.
Email resumes in MS Word format. Interviewing and Start is IMMEDIATE
*********************************************************************************************************************
Compensation: $35/hr staight time
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
Please, no phone calls about this job!
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests
Wonderful. Another CL ad with no agency listed. Our employment troubles are over. ROFL
its plaintiffs side too, so once you take it, you will likely be conflicted out of a lot of cases in the future. i would stay away from it.
This looks like an ad that has popped up a few times over recent months, never with an agency listed. Just another fake.
DeNovo women recruiters are told to hire women who are fatter than Evelyn so that she will feel good abuot herself. Sad thing is they are finding fewer and fewer qualified candidates.
FYI: that Excelerate project is real. I interviewed for it. But it's only 4 weeks and starts April 13/14
has anyone ever heard of or worked for this "Black Letter Discovery"? They recently posted on the NY Craigslist, but I have never even heard of them....
4:46 you sound like a fathead with nothing you can find to make you feel good about yourself except your weight. This too shall pass.
I have lots of gas.
5.05 you can do online registration with them by going to their website. I did but they haven't called me for anything.
Seems to me like some of these adds are for real.
The market is rallying, people are buying temp stocks, and temp work picks up sooner than regular work when the economy changes. The downside is that it also falls off quicker when the economy tanks Temp legal work isn't counter-cylical like people say, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a surge that happens as soon as the economy turns the corner. Litigations pick up and discovery needs to be done for them.
I AM YOUR MASTER,
You will bow to me and wear my collar hole.
Be on your knees, hole!
I hold your fate as I hold your chain. Lick my ground as I walk upon it, hole.
is 6:17 being serious?
It reads like the best sarcasm I have read lately.
If 6:17 is being serious they are another idiot that clogged it.
Listen up guys, important announcement. We need to shut down tonight at seven for some software upgrades so there won't be weekend hours this weekend. But we are open Monday. So go ahead and start shutting down, but don't worry business as usual in Monday. Enjoy your weekend.
6:45
I'm being serious.
Also, despite what you keep hearing there are permenant jobs outthere.
Mystery solved. 6:17/7:51 is an idiot.
6:47...OH MY HAIL! I AM LAUGHING MY BUTT OFF!
8:02
I'm an idiot with two interviews lined up and I'll probably land a few more.
Unlike some people here, I don't buy into the pessamism and fear promoted by the temp community and keep sending out resumes and interviewing.
pessamism
WAHHH!!! I suck so De Novo didn't call me for a job. WAHHHH!!!
8:23 What interviews? To register with temp agencies? Maybe you're impressing yourself, but to anyone who knows what's going on, you sound like a total moron.
Nope. They're the real thing. I suspect I'll have more coming down the pipeline shortly.
The temp market is picking up steam, but it's still pretty dead and probably only open to the A-listers, or someone with a relly weird niche speification.
Besides, if the market continues to pick up, the big reviews will start and then it's easy to land work. That is assuming I haven't landed something permanent (which gets even easier in a good economy).
This nonsense about there being too many attorneys is just that -- nonsense. As long as there are jobs, any reasonable person can find something under normal circumstances.
10:33 You can babble on as much as you like. You are not convincing anyone. You really do sound like a complete moron.
10:33 is just ignorant. He is in his own world.
Where is 6:47? I just need ONE more David King imitation before I can sleep.
I could care less what you think or what anyone else thinks except at the places where I'm interviewing.
The graduates from NYSL or Torro or Brooklyn or wherever else are not all temping. They find reasonable paying jobs in "shitlaw" gain experience and move up the ranks. Also, it's not relly as bad as some people act like it is. I'm sure there's some relly crummy places to work, but the majority of the places aren't that bad, especially if you can do a good job.
Obviously right now isn't the time to be looking, but when the market picks up you might consider looking for a permenant kind of job. Don't let all the negative crap you read on websites, how bad the recruiters say everything is, or the news affect you're thinking.
When the economy isn't sheding jobs, even in periods of reletively high unemployment you're not competing with that many applicants. You have to figure that 5% of the people are unemployable. So if you have 8% unemployment, you only have to compete with 3% of the unemployed people in that sector. The 5% will generally do stupid things like send out resumes with misspellings, etc., so they're eliminated almost immediatly. That's in the general attorney population, if you're experienced or have a niche skill, than the level of competition is even less. That's why people put up with a low, but reasonable, salary for a year or two.
When unemployment jumps 2% in a short time, then there aren't any jobs. . The catch is when firms are restructuring and laying off a bunch of people, they freeze hiring and they're certainly not going to hire a bunch of temps. It's not exactly good for firm moral to lay off 20 people, push back 1st year start dates, and bring in 40 temps to do a doc. review.
When the economy recovers or stabalizes, they'll unfreeze hiring and you'll see jobs again. Personally, I think the wind of change is in the air and things are about to start improving. For one thing, I wouldn't have interviews if things weren't changing.
12:39....You are talking out of your ass! Booooo
I watched the Oprah show a few days back, and Suzi Orman(?) said during that show that she does not think the economy will really come back until 2015. I agree, somewhat, with her. We are Japan in the 1990's. Until the banking system has the guts to write down the bad loans to the real value of the real estate etc., the economy will not improve. Banking is to the economy what a fuel pump is to a car, everything else can be functional but without the fuel pump working you are going nowhere!
I think predictions like that are silly. I also think 12:39 is about as convincing as a HireCounsel ad.
in 1999 the ABA was protesting and speaking out against the glut of foreign lawyers. What happened since then?
http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=34331
Contract Attorney - Lit Support Company
Reply to: see below
Date: 2009-04-04, 1:19PM EDT
Litigation Support Company in Manhattan seeks an attorney with document review experience with a background in Biology or Chemistry for a document review project starting ASAP. The assignment is expected to last several months.
The rate is $30 per hour.
If you are interested please email your resume in Word Format to awitting@thedinegroup.com and please refer to the "Contract Attorney" position in the subject heading.
WE NEVER FORWARD YOUR RESUME WITHOUT FIRST OBTAINING YOUR EXPRESS AUTHORIZATION TO DO SO.
* Compensation: 30 per hour
* Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
* Please, no phone calls about this job!
* Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
7:11
The economy doesn't need to improve. It only needs to stabalize.
It becomes almost impossible to find a job when there are large amounts of layoffs. It's like trying to swim against a current. Once things stabalize, the places that have layed people off start hiring again.
You know, you all are bringing back sweet memories of my favorite project! Ode to David King and Vlad, and all the team leads...where are they now I wonder? Remember when you had to decide whether you could do 90 hours that week! GOOD TIMES!
11:21 AM
HI BARON!
I have a science degree and I'm thinking of taking the Patent Bar exam.
Can anyone tell me if there are doc review or litigation support type jobs for patent lawyers, and how frequently recruiting for such projects occurs, compared with "mainstream" doc review work?
Definitely 6:56. You will have a much better shot at steady doc review and other work with it than without it.
656
What's your area of science?
Also, you do not need the patent bar for what you describe. Patent bar is where you plan to write patents for the PTO. Law firms are asking now more and more for it so that they can utilize this background, but it's not necessary to have this background to do patent litigation, especially if you have the science degree.
Yeah, right.
Try getting a patent litigation job w/o the patent bar.
There's not as many doc. reviews as regular ones, but they patent ones pay more and are harder to staff. You'll run into the problem of having to jump from one review to a better one.
You can also probably land a full time job with the patent bar if your willing to do the legwork yourself.
811:
I am studying for the patent bar, but I realize that this is not a cure all. I wanted to make it clear to the other poster that I think it's a good idea (helpful), but because it is not necessary,that the law firms may still play games. This was to give him or her a more well rounded idea of what I have been finding in my research. As for landing a job, it will depend on his area of science and geographic location. Again, it helps, but it's not a cure all.
Like most other areas of law, there are too many patent lawyers and its being outsourced like crazy to save a few sheckels.
The answer is *less* education people. An LLM or patent designation, absent other top-top credentials will result in just compounding your misery.
I know y'all won't listen, but you have been warned.
7:30
B.S. in Biochemistry.
6:56:
I am 8:26. This the first time in a while this site has discussed anything useful.
While becoming a patent attorney is not a cure all and will only help rather than secure job prospects, the claims by 8:50 are typical "sky is falling" commentary from this site. I would ignore him or her. The real picture is much more complicated.
My advice is to research your question rather than using anything that we say here as your guide. There are some very good chat boards about patent law that you can google that are neither about hyping the profession or making inaccurate pessmistic claims.
Biochem is hard regarding the prospects for prosecution, but, I am not certain for lit.
However, with clean tech (green tech innovation) (a lot of it happening in upstate NY).
A lot of companies- small companies are retooling. So are firms to address the new issue of clean tech. Several countries, including China (but not the US due to our idealogical beliefs about policy), are begining to heavily invest in tech that will require understanding biochem processes- ie, for carbon neutral fuels, batteries utilizing biochem processes (I believe electric cars run on it), etc. But I don't know where any of this is. I've read books that say the tech is there now.
Here are the sites for patent:
Patently-O, intelproplaw, aipla's career center.
Each can prove useful. I would ask your questions there, and do a lot of research.
8:50 is completely wrong.
In fact, the opposite is occurring. The USPTO sent a warning salvo to anyone who was outsorcing patents with their announcement about EAR.
B.S. in biology is a tough one. You might think about the USPTO. However, I suspect if you make an effort you'll find some kind of permenant job.
I agree with 6:56 about ignoring the nay-sayers. In a normal (pre- September and (hopefully) post-April) economy it usually takes 3-6 months to find something depending on your luck, experience, skills, and education. I've been getting an interview every 2-3 weeks when the DOW is over 8000. You have to get out there and try, and don't worry about rejection. It's like meeting women in a bar. Talk to everyone that comes by, and if they blow you off so what.
Regardless, take and pass the patent bar. It's cheap to do in comparison to other things, and gives you an advantage in the job hunt. Don't forget to keep sending out resumes to everything (including paralegal positions) while you're studying for the patent bar. Run it by your career counseler at your law school and try and think of some way to minimize any doc. review temp stuff.
Oh yeah, be very careful about the stuff you read on the message boards. Most people that are working have better things to do than post on them.
Good luck.
Many many out of work patent attorneys, don't believe the hype.
For example, a bitter JD/Phd
http://www.intelproplaw.com/ip_forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=um5svb2b5lvak9o3a5pjs3kfp2&topic=10773.0
You patent cheerleaders are delusional. Without top top credentials you will suffer as much or more as any other TTT.
There are a few patent projects out there.
One of them is at Kenyon & Kenyon which should go on the sweatshop list. Here are some lovely nuggets:
* Must be in from 9 am to 8 pm. NO EXCEPTIONS.
* 12:30-1:30 MANDATORY, unpaid lunch.
* The firm uses a PUNCH CLOCK and THREE different time sheets.
* NO cellphones, no talking, no headphones, and no internet.
* Dozens of temps crammed into a tiny room.
* Paralegal sits in the room to monitor temps.
* Associate sits next door to monitor temps.
* A daily log of the number of pages reviewed is required.
* Individual weekly meetings are held to tell temps to increase their page count at an astronomical rate.
* One temp, minimum, is fired per week.
* Below-market rate pay ($45) for a patent firm.
* Kenyon gone through so many temps in such a short time that they are hiring NON-ATTORNEYS:
http://jobview.monster.com/getjob.aspx?JobID=80228863&brd=1&q=attorney&cy=us&where=New+York+City%2c+NY&rad=20&rad_units=miles&qlt=1307142&qln=1059940&lid=550&sort=dt&dv=1&re=4&pg=2&pp=25&AVSDM=2009-04-03+14%3a35%3a00&seq=1&fseo=1&isjs=1&re=1000
******* Irony alert********
6:08 links to a site that I, one of the "cheerleaders," posted, but only links to one comment amongst many to reinforce his conclusion. But, I am the one trying to convince you of something.
As I said before, do your own research and due diligence. There are no cure alls or easy answers.
Do not trust 6:08 or me to make the right decision for you. This is the best advice you are going to get here.
6:05
Yes, there probably are a lot of unemployed patent attorneys, but a lot of that consists of very experienced people who may have 10 years + of working as PAs, and then got laid off by BigLaw or companies like Monsanto or DuPont.
What are these people gonna do, apply for doc review jobs or entry level jobs with the USPTO, where they would make 1/4 what they were making before? I doubt it.
So at the entry level I think things aren't so bad... sure, they're worse than before the recession hit, but things aren't cataclysmically bad.
7:03
That has a foreign langauge component also. Crazy man.
7:22
2-5 years experience is traditionally the best time to look for a job.
I don't know what the people with 10 years experience do. Maybe they solo? I think at some point their billing rate gets too high and they become unprofitable. Maybe they move inhouse? I think at that level they probably use a recruiter, so you don't see any postings. They also might be academically gifted but suck when it comes to getting anything done.
6:08
The end of the URL you posted was cut off by the blog, so the link doesn't work.
Could you plz repost the tail end of the link so we can read the article?
Thanks...
7:22
Good points, all. But my point was that people on the high-end of experience as patent attorneys are probably the most likely to see their jobs go bye-bye in this recession. In many cases, they can be replaced with much cheaper people with much less experience.
Paradoxically, this might actually lead to more openings at the novice end, correcting of course for the downturn.
a) People should be clear that a lot of patent work does not happen in Big Law. Midsized and smaller firms can provide more value to clients. I have friends work at smaller firms on the prosecution end. They can exist because of the area of expertise.
b) The pay scale for patent laws is such that I doubt many people here (given what we do and make now) would say 1/4 pay is bad after 10 years. Not that I think the state of the market can be proven one way or another.
Right now, we have no idea what the market is like for patent work. Patent prosecution maybe down. I don't know. Patent litigation is probably up. Another friend who works in the field says she's extremely busy. More so than normal. People are suing to protect their portfolios. But again, this is total speculation.
Should point out that the friend doing patent prosecution is also relatively busy because she has a physics degree, which is relatively in demand and she works for a smallish firm.
7:41
This happens in every industry, not just legal. The same thing happens in engeneering for example.
Also with regard to the openings, I agree, but it will happen a month or two from now assuming the market increases. The firms will kick out the first years, delay the incoming associates, and kick out the older associates. They'll have a hiring freeze while they're cleaning house. Then they'll turn around and hire a bunch of cheaper, younger, and more motivated alternatives. Pretty clever, huh?
From what I've heard if you bounce around more than 2 times and get fired on the third time in the first 3 years, it becomes difficult to land a job. The assumption is that you can't do the work. Likewise, if you don't start producing clients after 5+ years, you have a problem. The firms assume there's something wrong with you.
Anyway, the people that have the experience probably sit around or temp for a year or two until the economy is at a high point and then find something. There's also a higher end temp market for patent attorneys. Work from home and write office actions kind of stuff.
6:08
OK, I read the negative blurb by the Ph.D. computer scientist who's about to graduate from law school, and can't find work.
I think a huge amount of that has to do with the worst recession in 50 years, and some of it has to do with the fact that this guy obviously didn't cultivate connections with any of the companies he's worked for (he claims big time experience).
If he's been rejected by BigLaw, it's not because of any of his credentials (which are great), but in spite of them.
I don't think the Triple T thing means anything in this case because even many BigLaw firms hire people from pretty backwater schools if they happen to be on Law Review or graduate cum laude.
Here is the complete URL:
http://www.intelproplaw.com/
ip_forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=
um5svb2b5lvak9o3a5pjs3kfp2&topic=10773.0
The patent cheerleaders are absurd. There are just waaaaay too many patent attorneys and far too few jobs. This has been true for several years.
I just have to laugh at the engineer types that think they'll be shooting fish in a barrell once the pass the patent bar.
Those that I know have abandoned the law and have back into engineering.
Keep sipping the Kool Aid and deluding yourselves. I don't care, it's your career.
Nope,
you're absurd.
The Ph.D had bad timing. He's caught in the recession and the Bilski case which affects CS patents. The Bilski thing is starting to resolve itself, so maybe he's found a job.
Also having a Ph.D. and JD without any work experience makes me very suspicous. He might need the HB-1 visa or not be a native english speaker/writer. Also, academia isn't working out for him or her.
I am not even sure why he has a PhD in Computer Science. That's a bit bizare for patent work. Mostly, you will find a B.S. in Computer Science. It differents for general chem or bio for the law firms- which want PhDs. But, again, the problem with this discussion is that it's being framed as big law. This is, itself, wrong. Like I said, I have friends who work in the area so I know for a fact that have the crap being said here is just that- crap. It's a field like any other with ups and downs. No one is saying it's a cure all. In fact, it's not. There is no safety net area of our economy in which you can enter and assume you are safe. Hell, even government jobs aren't a sure thing. The point is the relative risks. Remember- this started with a guy who already had a B.S. in Biochem. He does not need to do anything additional other than take the exam. How could taking the exam hurt him?
8:20
OK, in my (first tier) law school class I had a study buddy who was a M.D. cardiologist from UCSD. He ended up graduating pretty high in the class, and thought he'd be a shoe-in for a top slot with a BigLaw firm doing med mal or healthcare law.
His hopes crashed when he saw that law firms basically said, "Yeah, so what?" to his credentials... and griped after sending out piles of resumes and not getting a bite, that most of those firms were hiring RN/JDs for the same jobs, and starting them at half (or less) what he was making as a doctor.
Reluctantly, he went back to practicing cardiology full time.
Now, people are just making things uo. Unless a firm has a practice related to regulation of pharmaceutical companies or works with the FDA, why would a cardiologist think that his getting a law degree would mean he would get a job with any firm?
For that matter, why would a competent cardiologist (which takes a decade post MD degree to become) go back to school to become a lawyer without any prior experience in the area of regulation? There are so many question that the fake post brings up. Why would he not apply for an inhouse position with a drug company? Why would he not apply to the FDA with such specialized training?
You may want to try better.
9:00
It's NOT a fake post I made.... Very real. In fact, if you count the evening section, there were 2 M.D.'s in that year's class at my law school. The other one was an ophthalmologist, believe it or not, who had a severe case of rheumatoid arthritis and could no longer operate. (He ended up staying after graduating and getting an LL.M in tax law just for the fun of it.)
I'm telling the truth about the cardio guy. B.S. from Maryland, M.D. from SUNY, cardiology residency at UCSD.
Why would I make this stuff up? It sounds very weird, I admit... and this guy always struck me as an extremely naive, nerdy guy. Not much experience with the 'real world'. But it's a very true story.
In fact, the guy was such a good student he actually graduated a semeseter EARLY (lots of summer school) and then got an internship at the CA AG's office doing some kind of enforcement work for a while. Then he sent out the resumes and got virtually no call backs. He hung up a virtual shingle to do med mal expert witness work on the side, but found that people were no more likely to use an MD/JD for that than just an MD.
I was more than a little bit shocked about how things turned out after law school for him...
The ophthalmologist has been doing more law, and became counsel to a medical society. But he's also back practicing medicine on a limited basis, as he's found drugs which have greatly improved his disease. Don't think he's really done anything with the tax law LL.M. (I think he just got the degree to say he had the degree.)
BTW, it doesn't take a decade post med school to become a cardiologist.... Close, but not 10 years.
Post grad, you have:
Internship - 1 year (sometimes waived)
Internal medicine residency - 3 yrs
Cardio fellowship - usually 2-3 years
It's usually 7 years, but can be as short as 5.
8:50
I agree. All anyone has to do is pull up the small/midsize firms and take a look at the Bios of people. You'll see plenty of patent attorneys with degrees from New England School of Law or Franklin Pierce.
9:00 I agree again. It's either a fake post or the cardiologist relly has a screw loose. I remember talking to some MD when I was in law school and wondered what the heck he was doing there. After a certain amount of education, it's time to get out in the real world.
I also agree about the guy taking the patent bar. It makes your resume look better and improves your chances for landing a job in patent or out of it.
I also wonder about the people that go out of their way to post hurtful and bad advice to these forms. Don't they have anything better to do? I sometimes wonder if recruiters post here in the hope of dissuading attorneys from sending out resumes so that they'll continue to temp, or scaer them into staying on crummy projects. Every once in a while, the posts seem designed to push the fear button.
9:20
a) I agree that even if this person has a specialty in cardio there is something wrong with the picture. It's not unheard of to see Jd/Md, but I don't remember hearing much about in the law firm context. At the FDA or with an inhouse position at pharmaceutical companies- maybe. But even these were not specialties like cardio, which is fairly high end pay. In the end, if true, I wonder if the law firms (especially big law which is lock step) simply 1) thought he wouldn't stay and 2) thought he would want more money than he was willing to say.
Not, sure, if he wanted to do management or legal, why he would not have talked to the people in his profession first, especially those working on the management/legal end. Why would someone with this kind of background want to work for a law firm?
b) I am in between on the value of working in patent. But, since the orginal guy already has the science degree, I do not see how it could hurt? This is my view of my background. I already have the science. Why not just take the patent bar?
c) I am not so conspiratorial about posters here. They seem to simply be disgruntled from the crappy nature of our profession, and unable to listen, to other people's specific circumstances without railing about the general crappy nature of the legal industry. They also tend to find evidence that reinforcing of their position. I know for a fact that the site used about the PhD in Computer Science anecdote is a good site. It is good because it gives multiple examples. Some are good. Some are bad. But, the commentor here searched only for an example that reinforces his already negative views. Again- what does the Biochem major who is already a lawyer have to lose by taking the Patent Bar? Ther are no job guarantees, but so what?
For instance, if the Biochem poster had said he was going back to school to get a biochem degree, then I would say make 100 percent sure that this is what you want because again there are no guarantees.
But, all he really wants to know if given he has a B.S. in biochem, should he take the patent bar? I am hard pressed to say why not. What does he lose? the 240 bucks it cost to take the exam? So what. That's not a lot given the potential for a new avenue of making money. It's not a cure all, but it's not going to cost much time or money either.
The American Bar Association's motto is:
"Defending Liberty, Pursuing Justice." I propose a fresh new motto:
"Defending liberty (But only if its liberty which affects BigLaw favorably.), Pursuing Justice (As long as it doesn't interfere with BigLaw.)"
adding more designations, spending more on education is about as useful as buying the latest diet book.
You are just feeding the machine that has us jammed up. Either work for yourself.... Meaning even if you are employed you still work for yourself and not your employer.
Adding designations, added education only puts money in someone elses pocket.
Unless you have a science specialty or engering degree you are just using the patent bar as an excuse to not do any work, take any work or work on finding a job.
I'll give you a certificate that you are good enough, smart enough in a plastic frame for $99.95. There now make a difference. And for god's sake stop feeding the regulatory bodies, bar associations and state bars that have us in this mess.
Only test anyone should be clamoring for is a national bar exam so we can travel to new work opportunities without the indignity and expense of another and another bar exam.
The entire system is designed to prevent more employment, i. e. competition from other lawyers. This worked until so many law schoools started churning out so many attorneys. Now can't freely up to where market is not saturated.
So all you got is some vague notion about how the system should work versus Well, I was asking for myself as well as the other poster to see if you had something more. Thanks for responding.
9:35 PM - All we're doing is pointing out there is a glut in the patent area. Many people are still operating on the assumption that getting admitted to the patent bar is some kind of license to print money - it isn't.
The patent attorney market is glutted and is still being outsourced. Many engineer types are flooding back to their prelaw jobs.
What is astounding is that you keep drinking that Kool Aid and refusing to listen to divergent views, even when buttressed by facts.
You in fact, have cited no examples to bolster your assertions.
I call bullshit on the NESL patent attorneys. Find me 5 of such attorneys....not just the one miracle example. Franklin Pierce? Show me the legion of FP patent attorneys. You are seriously delusional.
Go ahead and take the patent bar, just don't expect there to be a pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.
USPTO filings were down 25% in January 2009 (as compared to January 2008). Maintenace fees for US patents (pure profit for the PTO) are also down dramatically. Like the rest of the legal sector, there was overcapacity built into the IP sector, and that overcapacity simply isn't being used. Will it ever come back? Highly doubtful.
I went to law school with a girl who had been a pre-med major. She quickly realized there was no money in this field, and attended medical school the following year.
Her family had some money so it was an option. I don't know what happened to her. She was a bag of shit anyway.
The idea that a downturn means that it will never come back is absurd. Maybe people think these thoughts when they have never in their adult lives experienced a bad economy but it really is a specious concept.
Hey 1:08 PM - I understand your general point about our economy being cyclical with upswings and downturns - however, I think you're failing to take into account that certain business models become obsolete and wither away permanently - by your logic, the Rust Belt cities will once again be humming with manufacturing activity; the internet tech bubble will revert to the halycon days of 1999; and the Big 3 automakers will corner the American market;
why is it so hard to believe that the Biglaw bubble may be bursting? by that I mean clients are no longer beholden to the billable hour, especially for young, untested associates - of course biglaw will still exist, but the business model may need serious alteration
You go into panic mode at the mere sight of a downturn and decide the sky is falling. That is baseless.
12:48
Your statistics are off, I think it's like 5%.
1:22
Every sector is hurting. Also BIGLAW has only existed for 10 years or so. If it fails you'll see expansion in mid-size and small firms. It's hardly the end of the legal profession.
Anyone that believes that Biglaw is going to give up the billable is an idiot - it sounds like more of the LPO hucksterism.
"biglaw billables are going to be phased and out and the entire the legal operations will be commoditized and sent to Bangalore".
Keep dreaming, Babu. The billable hour is not going anywhere, because ultimately it is the fairest system.
Do really think they are going to allow Indian sweatshops to steal their work?
Absurd!
304 and Others
Yes, exactly. This is why I mentioned briefly midsized and small firms for patent law. To ignore them, in favor of biglaw, is to not realize the full market. The idea that you are going to gauge the industry in the middle of a downturn that's the worse in 30 years and also focus only on Biglaw (which itself is a recent invention of the last 10 years) is poor reasoning.
Also, as I have said, the point is not that patent is some kind of safe haven, but if you already have the science degree that it can not hurt for jobs related to patent. The only objections I have seen so far are that the industry sucks (which I agree) and that one should not have to jump through these random hoops (I also agree). But, as an adult, you realize that what should be is not always what is. Thus, I will take the patent bar because I realize it can not hurt and may (only "may") help.
The problem with some posters here is that they want us to be stuck or screaming the sky is falling. Any attempt to try something different is met with "you are crazy. Just give up."
328
Big law does not have magical powers. It is subject ultimately to the same forces as everyone else. They have only been around for 10 years at the size they are now. Before they were much smaller. More importantly, the issue is whether Big Law can compete in a field that's a specialization like patent or whether smaller firms can provide the services at a lower cost within the existing structure. The jury is still out.
BigLaw firms need a little humbling, like banks
3:33
I think if you pass the patent bar and send out a large amount of resumes to everything you might have a chance of getting, you'll find a job. Keep in mind medical malpractice firms since you have the bio degree. Also don't wait until you've passed the patent bar to send your resume to jobs that don't require it.
This "sky if falling" attitude and "there's nothing but Biglaw and temp jobs" is completely ridiculous.
Just don't give up when you get rejected a few times.
The Doc Review Era is over... even Goldman is sending projects over seas to India according to my Analyst friend at Sullivan. Apparently, it saves them as much as 65% to have the silly monkey work done in Indian sweatshops.
Nice to see our TARP money siphoned off to another country. How utterly disgraceful.
Goldman should be shut down, along with Lehman.
Lloyd B should have his balls cut off - oops, they already were.
Enough with the nonsense about India. Very little is going there. Most doc review is being done at biglaw because they don't have enough work for themselves there (as they have shown by laying off thousands of associates, etc). The posters claiming that it is all in India are just the trolls and the misinformed.
Beware the LPO Hucksters, they lurk here, desperate to steal work from America and extract it to India.
Beware the hucksters!
"doc review here, two dollars per hour...doc review here....two dollars per hour."
6:50. They could not talk intelligently about a reason why someone who already has a science degree should not take the patent bar other than ranting against admittedly crappy industry. Therefore, why not return to something you know- ranting against fear.
how many are there of these defenders of "the system," "the profession" that post here? Has anyone else noticed that there are quite a few defenders of this profession here?
These defenders see little wrong, they see sunshine on a cloudy day.
To them I ask, "what are you doing here on this site?"
What is your interest in arguing against those of us here who see a profession in ruins, with shattered prospects for newbies?
What horse do you have in this race?
Do you operate or own websites or companies that cater to law school prep?
Are you law school staffers or deans who get a nice bonus dependent on how many applicants you get each year?
What is your interest in posting here?
-unperson
It is true that many posters here seem never to have experienced a bad economy in their adult lives. There is not a word in there that is any kind of a defense of the profession.
I am a law school dean of admissions at a third-tier school in a major US city. I own stock in an Indian LPO, and I'm about to start a new outsourcing company which is poised to greatly expand its operations in India. I also am part owner of an agency that many here would deride as a legal "sweatshop". We run projects in Manhattan, Washington, DC, Miami, and at various locations in Connecticut, Virginia, and Delaware.
Last month, our agency hired 39 young attorneys for a doc review project in NYC, of whom 12 are Nigerians. It's good to have the Nigerians on the projects because they work harder than the American-qualified attorneys and also do errands for the managers during their breaks throughout the day. The managers need to have their dry-cleaning delivered, get their Chinese food picked up, mail FedExes and buy the newspaper. The Nigerians also make excellent personal shoppers and have great taste in ties, cuff links, sportcoats, scarves, etc. Much better taste than their US-trained counterparts, with whom my managers won't trust with their money. (The Nigerians cost a little more than the US-trained rubbish we employ, but they are worth it in terms of fringe benefits.)
But all this stuff about US-trained attorneys, and Nigerians working in US cities, won't matter much in a few years, because by then all the work will be outsourced to India. Our firm is taking the lead in that regard. We've recently created a "Virtual Network" of Indian law school grads all over the Subcontinent who are on call to meet our doc review, research, and contract-drafting needs at a moment's notice. As more and more BigLaw firms dump US-trained attorneys like hot potatoes, we're having to expand our networks in India to heretofore unseen proportions.
Is this affecting the students at my law school? Perhaps, but they don't need to know that specifically. I am "spilling the beans" here, as it were, because this is an anonymous forum. Also, I'm writing this from my 82-foot yacht docked off the coast of the sunny island of Corfu, in the Greek Adriatic. I conduct my admissions activities long-distance by satellite uplink on my onboard telecom system, where during admissions season, I send reminders to prospective students to enroll at our law school, promising them all kinds of cool, upscale jobs with BigLaw that I know, frankly, will never materialize. I dangle carrots out in front of them like "scholarship money" (actually it really amounts to pennies on the dollar of their total 3-year tuition bill -- but it's a good pitch to excite parents and other suckers!)
I know the P.T. Barnum pitches I use to lure in these gullible kids are a bunch of tripe, though -- ha! What jobs will even be around for any of these suckers -- I mean prospective law students -- after I and my growing network of Indian contract attorneys corner the market?
But it still pays to operate in this way, and otherwise how will I be able to afford that huge villa in the Seychelles that I just bought, or those parties on the Black Sea coast, jammed with Eastern European runway models?
It's all about scalability, and moving work to where it's appreciated most. The applicant pool at my law school hasn't caught on yet -- I figure I've got about 6, 7 years before it sinks in with those dolts. But what counts is the money I make in those 6, 7 years. When we reach cut-off point, we'll just suddenly close the law school. Just shut the doors someday, and say, "Sorry. BigLaw has signaled they need less lawyers. In fact, SmallLaw has signaled they need less lawyers. Woops! Too many lawyers. Sorry we have to go. Outta here."
But by then, I'll be gone, probably on another trip snorkeling somewhere in the Great Barrier Reef, then off to a midnight gourmet dinner at the beest French place in New Caledonia, with one of those delicious Russian girls I picked up in Dubai.
Then we'll just shut down that last little stateside sweatshop and put a sign on the front door saying: "Closed. Moved to India."
Ha! Then we fumigate that place and kill all the roaches and other vermin, to make it nice-nice for the new tenants... a new private debtor's prison (which we'll own stock in) to house some of those dumbass fools -- er, former law students -- who believed our little pitch.
Tsk tsk tsk. As they say in Neuilly-sur-Seine, where three of my chambermaids at the Riviera place are from, "C'est la vie."
Sat, Apr 4, 2009
This week in law firm layoffs:
DLA Piper: 8 lawyers
Alston & Bird: 14 lawyers, 38 staff
Lovells: 18 lawyers, 61 staff
Honigman: 15 lawyers, 30 staff
Hogan & Hartson: 93 staff
Mayer Brown: 45 lawyers, 90 staff
Locke Lord: undisclosed lawyers & staff
Allen Matkins: 6 lawyers, 4 staff
Robinson & Cole: 11 lawyers, 19 staff
Reed Smith: 26 lawyers, 74 staff
Stroock: undisclosed lawyers & staff
Manatt Phelps: 17 lawyers, 8 staff
Fried Frank: 41 lawyers, 58 staff
Total: 199 lawyers, 474 staff
The rumors were confirmed today: Cozen O’Connor announced it will bring on 30 attorneys from dissolving Wolf Block. The Wolf Block attorneys will add to the more than 60 lawyers Cozen O’Connor already has in the Big Apple. Cozen O’Connor PC is based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The firm was ranked 114th on the AmLaw 200 Survey in [...]
Continue reading... Gonzalez Saggio Expands into Phoenix, LA
6. April 2009
0 Comments
Milwaukee’s Gonzalez Saggio, a minority-owned law firm, is opening offices in Phoenix, Arizona and Los Angeles, California. Gonzalez Saggio represents AIG, Merrill Lynch, JP Morgan Chase and Morgan Stanley. Yikes. No wonder they’re expanding. The Phoenix office will be run by Charles Hamilton Houston III, who previously headed his own Phoenix law firm. The California office will bring [...]
Continue reading... Lanier Adds Attorneys for Houston Expansion
6. April 2009
0 Comments
The Lanier Law Firm is expanding in Houston, adding six new attorneys in the firm’s Asbestos Litigation Group, and an additional 14,000 square feet of office space. Respected asbestos litigators M. Clay Fostel, formerly of Houston’s Heard Robins Cloud Black & Lubel, and William H. Barfield, previously with Houston’s Smith & Hassler, are joining Lanier. Also joining: [...]
Continue reading... Dreier Survivors Create Sports & Entertainment Practice
6. April 2009
0 Comments
A pair of ex-Dreier attorneys is joining Hiscock & Barclay to found a new Sports & Entertainment Practice Area. Thomas I. Mandelbaum was co-chair of Dreier LLP’s Entertainment Practice Area. Monika A. Tashman also joins the new group. They were previously both partners at Selverne, Mandelbaum & Mintz. The new practice area will be co-chaired by Mandelbaum and [...]
Continue reading... Barnes & Thornburg Expands into Georgia
6. April 2009
0 Comments
Indianapolis-based Barnes & Thornburg has opened its eighth office, in Atlanta, Georgia. Stuart C. Johnson and Jason A. Bernstein, previously partners in the Atlanta office of Bryan Cave, will join the firm to open the Atlanta office. The firm will recruit lateral attorneys in all practice areas, with the intention of building a full-service office in Atlanta. The [...]
Continue reading... Morgan Lewis Lures Away Sonnenschein Partners
6. April 2009
0 Comments
Six partners from Sonnenschein have joined Morgan Lewis’ health care regulation practice. Joyce Cowan, Kathleen McDermott, John Rah, Albert Shay, and Howard Young are joining Sonnenschein’s Washington office, while Reece Hirsch is joining the firm in San Francisco. Sonnenschein has 18 lawyers in its FDA and health care regulation practice. Philadelphia-based Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP is a [...]
Continue reading... Brabners Merging with Bremners
5. April 2009
0 Comments
Brabners Chaffe Street, one of Liverpool, UK’s top corporate law firms, is merging with crosstown rival Bremners Solicitors. Eight-partner firm Bremners specializes in commercial & property law, and acts mainly for housing associations and other registered social landlords. Bremners was founded in 1837, and employs 30 staff. The combined firm will call itself Brabners Chaffe Street, and will [...]
Continue reading... Alston & Bird Lays Off 14 Lawyers, 38 Staff - Kind of…
3. April 2009
0 Comments
A few days ago, Atlanta-based Alston & Bird deferred start dates for incoming associates. The associates were offered the opportunity to participate in one-year public service or pro bono fellowships. This is common practice this year when biglaw firms defer associates. Alston & Bird announced today it is laying off 14 lawyers and 38 staff. But [...]
Continue reading... Fraser Milner Casgrain Internship Aids Immigrant Lawyers
3. April 2009
0 Comments
Canada’s Fraser Milner Casgrain has launched two innovative programs targeting foreign-trained legal professionals. The internship and mentoring programs are designed to help immigrant lawyers network and gain work experience while they are in the process of getting their foreign credentials approved. The internship position has a salary, and lasts six months. It was developed with input from [...]
Continue reading... Wolf Block Finance Group Headed to Blank Rome
2. April 2009
0 Comments
David Gitlin, finance partner and chairman of dissolving Wolf Block’s corporate and securities practice, is leading a group to the New York office of Blank Rome. Gitlin will join the firm as a partner in its mergers & acquisitions and private equity group. He brings with him associates Ephraim Schmeidler and Shaun Snitman. Gitlin’s practice is focused [...]
1:38,
I just don't give a shit about your cut and paste law firm reports. These legal brethren are just lucky they don't walk into me on the street. They at least have something to put on their resumes and have been getting perks and paychecks for awhile. They don't lose sleep over my family. They don't care about me. I beyond don't care about them. Piss on them.
1:38,
You got any money to give me today?
Anybody get called or make progress on that excelerate posting????????????????!
What happened to our "hello friends" email follow-up?
Such a sincere sounding man and now?
Ok, I'm tired of this B.S.! I'm tired of being screwed over, lied to, and tricked! I'm declaring war on the sweatshops, law firms, and law schools! It's on!
so what are you going to do 9:18? Are you going to sue?
10:35 - nice try, but a poor flame. I heard that a few industrious Nigerians are taking their skills back home to open up their own outsource shops.
That's the beauty of outsourcing, once the work is portable, you can take it anywhere. Our firm is setting up in South Africa, with a sharp eye towards expansion into Nigeria.
The India thing is getting too expensive, and with the constant threat of terrorist attacks it's fairly unstable. Plus the Indian workers are getting uppity now, demanding perks and pay raises. How dare they!
South Africa represents the new wave. We look forward to helping boost the living standards throughout Africa. India is already booming, so no need for investment there any longer. India is so 2008!
Besides, their English skills are vastly overrated.
10:05,
Your post just now was poor. You
are an idiot and not benefit. The only thing you could do to justify the air your breath is be punching bag for me to beat today. You are a loser. I'd kick your ass. Now go back to your video games loser. Loser loser. You are a dumb piece of shit.
1:38 is a dumb piece of shit that needs there ass kicked as well.
"You are an idiot and not benefit."
Let me guess, you're from India. Point proven, their English skills are vastly overrated.
9:18-
Sounds good- how do you plan on following through with this 'war'?
Robert Half Legal hired a bunch of temps at $20 an hour to summarize caselaw for a media company. JObs are out there but the rates are lower. Hang in there, peeps.
12:47
Robert Half is now Robert Quarter.
12:47 are you that stupid?
really, it is 2009!, we went to college, law school and this is NYC. $20.00 an hour and no benefits? Really? I would work in a deli first if I could find that type of work. At least I would get something to eat, minimum wage, chance at a raise and tips. Plus probably more opportunities to find other jobs or at least see the world rather than sit on my ass in front of computer and be jacked around.
hey 12:47,
I'm paying $21.00 an hour to watch you walk a park and eat dog shit. You got to really stuff those turfs in you mouth and not miss any hot ones. OT available!
Stay optimistic peeps!
Please just leave the profession and move to the middle of a volcano.
We are wiser to locate back issues of the magazine 'MOTHER EARTH' then continue to spin our wheels trying to figure out where each of us are going to fit into a system - now passe. It is a new paradigm people, be creative.
5:36,
I'll show you creative, I'll be real crative with how I use your mouth tonight.
8pm, middle stall,
Stop posting the BigLaw layoffs you dumb shit @ 1:38, NO ONE GIVES A FUCK ASSHOLE.
Dewey, Layamoff & Howe, LLP just laid off 62 lawyers and plans to lay off 97 more next week.
Its funny how the self proclaimed experts will coach a job seeker on etiquette during the entire job search but some managers, HR staff and recruiters won’t reply to e-mails, or phone calls, or have a real conversation with a job seeker.
The trend for this week is returning to the well. We're seeing a number of firms that have had previous layoffs trimming further.
White & Case was one of the first top-tier US firms to do a massive layoff back in November. At the time, everyone was shocked by the numbers: 70 lawyers, 100 staff. The bar has been substantially raised since then, but W&C continues to surprise.
Round 2 was far worse: 200 lawyers, 200 staff. That vaulted the firm back to the top of the table. In fact, White & Case has completed a trifecta: #1 in total layoffs, layoffs of attorneys and layoffs of staff, an ignominious feat.
It's on to Round 3 for Baker & McKenzie, one of the few US firms larger than White & Case, which has announced further cuts in London. The firm laid off 20 staff in London in January, and is now seeking to sever up to 85 more in the office. Bakers was the first to announce layoffs in calendar 2009, when six lawyers were fired in New York.
Paul Hastings is also on Round 3, following an unknown number in Atlanta in early February, and stealth layoffs in Los Angeles and Shanghai later in the month, the firm laid off 131 - 44 attorneys, 87 staff.
None can compete (yet) with Halliwells, a UK Top 50 firm that is on its FOURTH round of redundancy consultations. The firm has fired 40 people already and 30 are in scope of the current activity - 15 lawyers, 15 staff. I can't imagine how horrible morale must be over there.
More trends and analysis after the jump.
The hot topic of recent weeks has been "Which day has been the worst for layoffs?" January 29 (652) and February 12 (643) were the previous recordholders, but this week began with a bang and took the top spot, largely on the heels of White & Case's actions. Monday, March 9 ("Monday Bloody Monday") saw 737 people lose jobs at major law firms: 400 at White & Case, 216 at Morgan Lewis & Bockius, and 121 at K&L Gates. For detailed analysis, see here.
We'll have to go back and update that text (although the charts update automagically). Monday came in at #1 with a bullet, and many hoped that Wednesday would be a bit of a reprieve; there was nothing all day until word came out late of Proskauer Rose laying off 23. Unfortunately, firms picked right up where they left off: 485 people were laid off on Thursday March 12, making it the 6th-worst day of layoffs since January 2008.
Even Tuesday March 10 made the Top 10 list, with 232 - 90 attorneys, 142 staff, the bulk of which came from Paul Hastings.
The other trend that continues is stealth layoffs. Most recently, rumors about Davis Polk have been increasing, but they go back at least as far as January. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire. At the time, we also reported rumors of stealth layoffs at Latham & Watkins (which then announced 440 on February 27), Cooley Godward (112 on January 21), Alston & Bird (still quiet), Hogan & Hartson (149 on Feb. 17), DLA Piper (180 on February 12, and other smaller actions subsequent), and Winston & Strawn (still quiet).
The Law Shucks opinion (with which ATL has nothing to do), on stealth layoffs is here. We'll continue to try to root out this information.
Not surprisingly, with three of the 10 worst individual days having happened this week, the numbers continue to disappoint:
1,477 for the week (603 lawyers, 874 staff)
2,731 for the month (977 lawyers, 1,754 staff)
7,092 for calendar 2009 (2,874 lawyers, 4,218 staff)
Relax, relax. Finally, job opportunities: http://tinyurl.com/ca2yjt
1:38 and 1:46,
I believe you are in the wrong forum.
I also think you are an idiot and would gladly meet to beat you.
April 7, 2009
Why 1L Must Include Law Office Internships
Filed under: Law Schools — Caretaker @ 11:10 am
Law Degrees–Take One, Everybody Else Has
***
Many of our readers lament that if only they knew just what the practice of law was, they would not have become lawyers. TV shows have created an image of lawyers as energized policy makers with full plates of good, interesting work. The reality for much of the profession, however, is that the practice of law is a tedious bore composed of petty paper hanging and rote work interrupted by bouts of sheer panic waiting for the phone to ring for the next stitch of work. We will report the results of our most recent survey soon, but nearly 90% of survey responders told us that they don’t see themselves practising law in 10 years. Wow. Talk about a career mistake.We at EOE believe that undergraduates and 1Ls must be exposed to the day in the life miseries of lawyers before their own lives are ruined by being trapped in a severely overcowded and unbelievably boring profession. Having these young people observing just exactly what lawyers do all day and often all night will give them the education they deserve about the true state of the profession. Now they are provided phony glimpses of a make believe world occupied by a fraction of the practising bar. Add office internships to the first year curriculum. Let the daylight in.
8 Comments »
Who, pray tell, doesn’t do this? Were it not for my internship, I’d have returned for 2L and now be luring your visitors away to my own blog while notarizing documents.
.
Frankly, I wish I had quit my sales gig a year early and worked in a firm BEFORE applying to LS. I was advised quite firmly against it b/c of all the income I would have foregone. But given the fact that I’m still paying for that utterly wasted year in LS, it would have been a wash.
Comment by Dood — April 7, 2009 @ 12:02 pm
I had no idea what the practice of law really was when I went to law school. I know now it sucks
Comment by jude — April 7, 2009 @ 1:23 pm
we are almost all douchebags that should punch ourselves in the nuts — Law School itself is such a miserable experience — THAT alone should have been enough to get us to pick up the clue phone…
Comment by Lex Capri Fellat — April 7, 2009 @ 2:14 pm
Whwn I was in LS, I thought what you lnew was important.
Comment by caretaker — April 7, 2009 @ 3:14 pm
Law schools should be forced by Congress to make full disclosure of the unemployment facts of life for their particular law school. Yes, tell the 1L’s exactly how bleak their prospects for any employment at all, let alone meaningful employment, actually are. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Comment by Shark Food — April 7, 2009 @ 3:31 pm
caretaker - i totally agree. but what about some career alternatives for those of us who are already stuck. the idea of the pretzel cart was funny, but let’s be serious. are there any serious companies/consultants trying to move lawyers into other fields? i’d love to see what you could come up with.
Comment by pierre — April 7, 2009 @ 9:23 pm
I sent a letter last night to my senator saying that if the taxpayor is backing law school loans than there needs to be some regulation of the profession. Neither the students nor taxpayors can afford these loans without having a true sense of what the unemployment numbers are for lawyers. Considering that I personnaly have probably met close to 1,000 chronically underemployed lawyers in my 5 years of practice in NYC, I’d say its pretty high. Somebody should set up a website to generate those signed fax forms to Congress calling for an end to the accredidation of new law schools and the prohibition of outsourcing.
I would suggest the person who wants to take the patent bar ask patent lawyers he/she knows the following question: "If I pass the patent bar would you recommend me for a job in your workplace/firm?" If the answer is yes, then he/she should take the patent bar, if no, then they should ask why they would not be recommended for a job. People get hired on personality and talent, not extra credentials.
People get hired on personality and talent, not extra credentials.
They damn well do get hired based on "extra credentials."
It proves your smart and willing to go outthere and get the credentials. Who are you going to hire for an entry level position in personal injury? Someone who's done nothing but review docs for the past three years or someone who's passed the patent bar or gotten certified as a court interpreter?
Also, deciding to take the patent bar based on whether someone will reccomend you to a firm is ridiclous. Take the patent bar and start networking and sending out resumes to everything you can think of will work much better.
I wouldn't hire someone for a personal injury position based upon their being a court interpreter. Maybe it's just me, but no.
Taking the patent bar is a plus, not a guarantee. It is not very expensive and their are some projects that require it. The price of taking it can be made up in less than one day of clicking. It's worth it.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
I wouldn't hire someone for a personal injury position based upon their being a court interpreter. Maybe it's just me, but no.
Taking the patent bar is a plus, not a guarantee. It is not very expensive and there are some projects that require it. The price of taking it can be made up in less than one day of clicking. It's worth it.
3:43 PM
Law is a shit profession! Is anyone here surprised by this revelation?
I encourage one and all to flood Top Law Schools.com and implore the young people on that board to readjust their expectations for a legal career.
They are delusional lemmings in need of some "straight talk".
I disagree.
It's not a bad profession at all, if you're smart.
So you have to specialize or put up with a low salary (but quite liveable) or like 6 months. Big deal.
If you do a good job you get a raise or jump to somewhere that will pay you more.
There's generally always some kind of work available (assuming there's not a huge spike in unemployment when you're looking -- like in the past 3 months), so getting a job isn't all that difficult.
If on the other hand, you're incapable of writing a motion or acting in an intelligent manner in court, then you've got a problem.
3:43
I wounldn't hire them based on being a patent attorney or a court interpreter, but I would weigh it in their favor. It's proof that they're not an idiot, which is the type of employee you're trying to avoid hiring.
What is going on at Hire counsel? All their recruiters are gone.
3:00 pm your an idiot.
4:23, you are seriously ignorant. Try years if low pay, then no work, then low pay, then no work. All the while carrying loans, bar fees, cle,etc.... Plus an unfriendly profession if you are trying to compete as a solo. Forget having a family unless your wife works and is okay with living in a shoebox. Forget ever going on vacation other than going to a park bench.
It is truly miserable. Lousy work, lousy pay and prospects unless you know somebody, are somebody connected to bringing in business or went to a top school and were cut throat dork that thought they were the shit. And not to mention that jd is worse than having a felony conviction when looking for work outside of the legal field.
Anyone saying that your legal degree is useful in getting work in another profession needs to be honest about who is financially backing them, there family connections, family money, family business or career success before they went to law school. I don't care how bright you are if you faced with the stress of being broke, in debt, unable to find any work, without health care and have no connections to get you in the door somewhere you are screwed. You are drowning and someone is tellin you well you know you should try to take up sailing.
Same old story haves keep having and have nots struggle.
Just a real fucked up profession. Wish I'd known.
Being a court interpreter has nothing to do with practicing law so it would be idiotic to give it any consideration when hiring someone to be a personal injury attorney. The level of stupidity of so many of the posters here is amazing.
You are not going to change minds here. This started when a poster asked whether they should they take patent bar if they meet the requirements?
To give you an idea of how relentless the negativity is here- check out the actual discussion that one poster linked us to as "proof" that one should not take the patent bar:
http://www.intelproplaw.com/ip_forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=um5svb2b5lvak9o3a5pjs3kfp2&topic=10773.30
When you actually read the comment string, it presents a complicated picture involving the economy, outsourcing (dead in the water for patent work) and multiple issues. You would not guess that reading about it here. It's like people get off on spinning information in the most pessmistic way possible.
Staff Layoffs at Bracewell & Giuliani
Today we received a lengthy tip from a frustrated employee of Bracewell & Giuliani, reporting support staff layoffs at the firm’s Washington, DC office.
London Magic Circle firms Clifford Chance and Allen & Overy have delayed their 2009 partner promotions. Clifford Chance will defer this year’s promotions process until the firm completes its restructuring this Summer, which is likely to cut the firm’s partnership up to 15%.
Quinn Emanuel held more layoffs at their Los Angeles Office yesterday. There are no further details. The last rumored layoff was held last month, and there were no numbers released then as well.
5:20
I totally agree about this board.
It's either there are no projects or the projects suck; there are no real jobs or the real jobs suck, etc.
If these people relly believe all this negativity, I can see why they don't get a job or succeed at the jobs they do manage to get.
What do people expect, a six figure income because they graduated from a low ranked law school, have an undergrad in some useless liberal arts subject, refuse to network, and have absolutely zero experience?
Under normal circumstance they even get this with doc. review, and then turn around and bitch and complain about it.
Get over yourself.
Still think there's not outsourcing...Quislex has over 200 "attorneys" and business is booming.
All of the entry level jobs are going over there now. Sorry guys, the ABA stabbed you in the back, accept it.
http://pbs-newshour.onstreammedia.com/cgi-bin/visearch?user=pbs-newshour&template=template.html&query=india+ClipCategory%3AClipCategory%3Abusiness&keywords=india&category=ClipCategory%3Abusiness&submit.x=49&submit.y=7&submit=Search
1:44
You are stupid as fuck. I want to point out that you, like tom the temp, are unmanagable; therefore, no manager wants to deal with you.
Generation Y?
I thought so.
Etiquette. What a stupid fuck. I'll clear it up for you: they have a fucking job and you don't. Lose the entitlement, focus on yourself, and perhaps then we can see what happens.
http://www.quislex.com/
Gee this is the kind of work I used to do. No wonder India is booming, they are stealing work from Americans!
Get your own work, motherfuckers!
"CASE STUDIES
LITIGATION SERVICES
CLIENT’S CHALLENGE:
Client is a leading global financial institution. Client’s compliance department suspects internal violations of SEC regulations and/or internal policies. Client needs large amounts of electronic data reviewed as quickly as possible to identify relevant documents and issues for further internal investigation and segregate privileged information, all relating to potential violations of SEC regulations and Client policies. Client is not only concerned with speed and results, but also needs to ensure its data is secure.
THE QUISLEX SOLUTION:
•QuisLex assembled a team of highly qualified attorneys with industry-specific experience and LLB/LLM/JD from premier U.S. and U.K. law schools
•QuisLex provided an accelerated project-specific training and commenced review of the entire pool of documents and e-mails
•QuisLex deployed Six Sigma methodologies for quality control, error tracking and security protocols
•QuisLex’s team identified highly relevant and potentially privileged documents within the short timeline
THE QUISLEX ADVANTAGE:
•Extremely high quality and cost-effective work product
•Secure review environment
•Fast turnaround times
•Access to a trained team for future engagements
For additional case studies on our Litigation Services, click here
CLIENT’S CHALLENGE:
Client is a leading U.S. litigation law firm (the “Firm”). The Firm’s client is involved in several litigations relating to white-collar crime, and had innumerable documents and several gigabytes of data to be reviewed as part of e-discovery. The Firm needed review done in a compressed timeframe but at a reasonable cost without compromising quality.
THE QUISLEX SOLUTION:
•QuisLex bolstered the Firm’s dedicated team with several trained attorneys from our Litigation Services Group •QuisLex’s team worked round the clock in multiple shifts and successfully performed a detailed relevancy analysis based on specifications and on-going guidelines from the Firm•QuisLex worked closely with the Firm to deploy its proprietary Six Sigma methodologies and security protocols to ensure the work product was of the highest quality and the client’s data was always protected•The team and its project managers interacted frequently with client to be appraised of latest developments in the active litigations
THE QUISLEX ADVANTAGE:
•The work product was of exceptional quality and the work was completed in 50% of the time it would have taken to be done in the U.S. and at 33% the cost
•The Firm has continued access to a dedicated, trained team of QuisLex attorneys who can assist the Firm’s litigation team throughout the course of the litigations"
Clutch Group collaborates with Rainmaker and the Indira Gandhi National Open University to introduce the First Legal Process Outsourcing Diploma Training Curriculum
March 18, 2009 – Press Release
http://www.prweb.com
WASHINGTON, D.C. (March 18, 2009) – Two distinguished members of Clutch Group’s global team, Lynee Gore and Sajan Poovayya, have been invited to serve on the Expert Advisory Committee for the Post-Graduate Diploma in Legal Process Outsourcing in collaboration with New Delhi-based Indira Gandhi National Open University and Rainmaker, a leader in legal recruitment. The committee will oversee the development of a one-year diploma program that will prepare students to work in the rapidly growing Indian Legal Process Outsourcing (LPO) industry. The first academic cycle began in February, 2009.
Will the last doc reviewer on an English project in the United States of America please shut the lights and close the door on your way out of the room?
Some people here apparently don't understand what a press release is. They are not real news reports. They are no more reliable than ads because that is essentially all they are. Even the posse list has conceded that the outsourcing to India stuff is way overblown. The law firms don't have enough work for their own associates so they are doing the doc review themselves.
It's probably mainly paralegal work, but it still relly fucking pisses me off.
Why the fuck did I go to law school, take the bar, and have to abide by a bunch of ethics bullshit if US legal work can be outsorced to unadmitted attorneys.
I sincerely hope that fat slob of an indian woman in the frontline video gets disbarred.
Why do to law school when you can get a fucking "LPO Certificate" to practice American Law?
This is a joke of a gutter profession. We are so unbearably stupid that we have allowed our industry to be exported.
It's just so moronic. Whoever said lawyers were smart was a dumbass.
Why do to law school when you can get a fucking "LPO Certificate" to practice American Law?
This is a joke of a gutter profession. We are so unbearably stupid that we have allowed our industry to be exported.
It's just so moronic. Whoever said lawyers were smart was a dumbass.
Why do to law school when you can get a fucking "LPO Certificate" to practice American Law?
This is a joke of a gutter profession. We are so unbearably stupid that we have allowed our industry to be exported.
It's just so moronic. Whoever said lawyers were smart was a dumbass.
For any English language reviewers out there, your goose is cooked.
Babble on about LPOs and fret over Clutch's press releases all you like. This is what a bad economy with massive unemployment is like. When the economy improves, we will all be back at work.
You're high. The corporations are moving the work to India in droves. Don't be so myopic, they're exporting your job.
Where's your outrage, or are you just another PC liberal afraid to speak up?
People have got to stop thinking this is an either/or thing... EITHER it's outsourcing OR it's the bad economy.
The bad economy and the acceleration of outsourcing are two realities that are joined at the hip, and they share a heart.
As long as the economy is in the shitter, there is more incentive than ever for any company to outsource any given job, and that's what they're doing.
Not ALL the jobs are being outsourced, but the litigation isn't completely disappearing. The doc work is just being shifted to a much cheaper labor market to save money. Just because you don't hear about every project that's outsourced, doesn't mean it's not happening. It's what you DON'T hear about that should worry you.
The doc review is being done in the firms. They don't need to hire extras when they have too little work for their own associates. Even posselist has stopped perpetuating the myth that LPOs have it all. Most clients and firms won't go near them. They have much less than you think. Maybe you should take the time to learn the difference between a press release and a news report.
the litigation isn't completely disappearing.
__________________
Maybe you haven't noticed that thousands of biglaw associates have been laid off during the same period of time that the doc review has dried up because biglaw doesn't have work for them. It's called "the credit crunch." Maybe you think that doc review is unaffected by the economy. Wrong!
Post a Comment