"Instead of simply griping about the shortcoming of law school employment statistics, Patrick Lynch collaborated with fellow Vanderbilt law student Kyle McEntee to develop what they hope will become a new source of information for would-be law students. The two have founded a non-profit organization called Law School Transparency with the goal of compiling detailed employment and salary information from all ABA-accredited law schools."
Good luck with this guys. I am sure you will receive a deluge of cooperation, especially from the ABA and the lower tier law schools. Your attempt at system wide transparency through carefully reasoned law review articles is admirable, but when you mess with the income streams of the lower tier law schools (who owe their very survival to scamming young people with access to mountains of subprime educational debt), get ready to get thuggy with it. You are dealing with the trashy, dishonest, seedy salesmen personas of Massasar, Joan King, the Valvoline Dean and their ilk, not Learned Hand.
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/
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http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2010/04/profiles-in-hypocrisy-ttt-dean-thomas.html
Don't forget the TTThomas Menglers of the world - reporting false judicial clerkship figures to USN&WR. Of course, this was in "error" - just like I accidentally called Mengler a hypocrite.
http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/north_dakota_law_dean_says_u.s._news_info_on_clerkships_is_wrong
"The University of St. Thomas law school has also come forward, issuing a statement by Dean Thomas Mengler saying its clerkship information is wrong. “Our data as provided to U.S. News and World Report is incorrect, and we are working with U.S. News to fix this error,” Mengler said."
http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2009/11/response-from-sj-quinney-college-of-law.html
And don't overlook the fact that Dean Reyes Aguilar at the University of Utah COL - currently the 42nd greatest, most illustrious law school in the U.S. - informed me that "This was an inadvertent error on our part and we regret any inaccurate impressions it may have created. We will be posting a message on our website and sending email messages to candidates who visited our tables at law fairs acknowledging our mistake and correcting the information. The overall median salary for the Class of 2008 that should have been listed was $62,400 and the overall range was $25,000-215,000."
http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2009/12/open-letter-to-iowas-law-dean-and-her.html
And, lastly, don't forget that the dean of the 26th most amazing, fantastic law school in the land (Iowa COL) told me: "Thank you for your note regarding salaries for our law school graduates. The very high salary you note is quite high, but it is what was reported to us. In our reporting we do not limit our graduates' salaries (which is what we are asked) to those practicing law."
Of course not, Carolyn Jones. So a JD who changes oil or delivers pizzas counts as employed. And if a graduate reports a salary of $750K, you can only rely on his word and integrity, right?!?
Lawyers will lie about how good their job and salary are for prestige.
"I am a doctorate. A doctorate in jurisprudence. I am associated with Quinn Emmanuel."
The dean of BLS also made a "mistake" last year in reporting the numbers. These con artists are a hundred times more sleazy than the characters at Goldman.
I cannot admit I made a mistake in going to law school. I would lose my prestige in front of my family and friends. I must continue the charade. I was turned down for $15 E.P. Dine job. I was treated like a dog by Dine.
Even a Mickey D's worker is treated within basic law. Not like temps who are treated like animals in a zoo. Being stared at through a glass window and laughed at by the whole world. While the temps pompously wear the suit to office and say they are associated with an Amlaw 100 firm.
I am a legal analyst at the white shoe firm of Sullivan & Cromwell. Despite the fact that I can wear my pajamas to work, I am associated with the most prestigious blue chip Wall Street financial firms. I get a meal allowance and am escorted home in a fancy car service. My neighbors envy me when I pull up in East Orange.
12:12PM is spot on!!! consider paralegal work before going to a 3rd tier law school, all you need is a BA & you'll make more $ than temp doc reviewers..sadness..
Although it's refreshing to see more of the truth exposed about the legal industry and warnings to prospective prey; it's just sad no one is willing to transition those who underwent the law transformation. That's a good idea a project for lawyers who want to transition to a different career: caveat-no more student loans to do it.
What a life. Jump from project to project like a Mexican day laborer and run a side solo business scamming illegals and the elderly out of their money, all the while earning less than a Home Depot worker when you take crushing student loans into account.
what this country needs are more doctors and engineers!!!! stop the law school scam, we need to end this glut!!! there is no prestige in this profession, unless you went to a Top 20 school or are from the "Old boy" network, stop deceiving yourselves!!! get out now while you can
"Jump from project to project like a Mexican day laborer"
This actually makes it sound better than the reality.
There are no projects to jump to.
How about, spend months begging the agencies for what turns out to be a two week stint $20 per hour with maximum 30 hr. week.
Then out of work for the next year flailing around looking to get on a new project.
Pretending to have a solo practice on the cell phone all day.... but in reality doing free work for people with no money and who are guilty as sin.
Now even hot dog stand clients say to me, better not charge because there are thousands of lawyers out there willing to take their case.
The ABA opening the floodgates, over 120,000 lawyers in New York and over 250,000 in New York.
50,000 new lawyers graduating next month!!!!
Most of them going to the two coasts to realize their L.A. law Boston Legal CSI NY dream.
Paralegals at the big firms really look down at temps.
They are told by the associates and admin at the firm that the temps are the low of the low and failures in their career.... not like the paralegals will be when they go to a top low school.
Yeah, the same Iowa COL that said, "oh we didn't receive your notice that you were unemployed in time, so we counted you as employed."
Integrity all the way. I'm sure they'll fully support "law school transparency."
The decision by the SEC to file civil fraud charges against Goldman Sachs has been big news over the last week or so. On Wednesday, Reuters provided a profile of the Goldman Sachs legal team, which features several Biglaw heavy hitters.
The lead lawyer in the Goldman Sach’s defense is Richard Klapper, a partner at Sullivan Cromwell since 1987 who has represented several big financial firms to victories in the past.
Reuters describes Klapper as a lawyer who “keeps a low profile…(and) is a fearsome litigator.
The story cites Klapper’s previous wins, which includes a role as a lawyer representing Barclays in 2007 in a class-action suit filed by Enron Corp. shareholders against banks that advised Enron before its collapse in 2002.
“It’s certainly fair to say ‘formidable’ is the right word for him,” Charles Whitehead, a securities law professor at Cornell and former attorney at Sullivan & Cromwell told Reuters.
“He’s diligent and very, very focused,” Whitehead said. He goes on to note Klapper does not have a lengthy biography on the firm’s website because “he does not brag.”
Joining Klapper on the Goldman defense team is Gregory Craig, a former White House Counsel to President Obama who Politico said was brought on to aide in political and legal matters. Craig practices in Washington D.C. as a partner at Skadden Arps Slate Meagher & Flom.
Also part of the defense team, sources told Reuters, is Vince DiBlasi, another Sullivan & Cromwell attorney who has experience representing high-profile individuals in SEC investigations.
The story goes on to note Sullivan & Cromwell is regarded as a “top corporate go-to law firms in the country” that has “a long-standing relationship with Goldman Sachs.”
Multiple online reports indicate Mayer Brown has laid off 28 associates and 47 staffers. Mayer Brown saw a 14 percent decrease in revenue in 2009 and last April the firm let go of 45 lawyers and 90 staff.
According to a memo obtained by Above The Law, affected personnel will receive salary and benefits continuation packages, outplacement counseling and other assistance to help them through this difficult time.”
Firm leaders did say in the memo that 2010 is off “to a positive start” for Mayer Brown, but apparently it wasn’t enough. Last year net income fell by almost 19 percent at the firm and overall head count dropped by 144 to 1,657.
Chadbourne & Parke's decision last month not to offer jobs to 11 deferred associates from 2009 obviously didn’t sit well with those affected. Nor does the firm’s plan to move on in its summer program recruiting. The New York Law Journal spoke with four of those involved as well as the firm’s head of recruiting to provide more insight into the move.
According to the report, Arent Fox and Winstead are the only other biglaw firms known to have rescinded offers to deferred associates of 2009. Yet Scott Berson, a partner and the firm’s head of recruiting, said that while the business decision “was not something we took lightly at all…we really don’t think we’re standing out in any particular way.
“We handled an issue every New York law firm was handling, and we felt this was the most equitable way to do it given the firm’s circumstances and students’ circumstances, both of which were taken into account,” Berson told NYLJ.
The firm said it will be back recruiting on law school campuses in August, but at least one of the deferred associates finds that particularly unfair.
“I would hope that if they were going to end our relationship they would have looked to end their future classes,” the lawyer said.
The firm’s reasoning, according to Berson, is not having a summer program would potentially hurt the firm’s law-school pipeline.
“We thought not having a summer program or drastically reducing a summer program would send the wrong message, because we’re very optimistic about our future,” Berson said. “We don’t want to cut ties with other law schools or at least leave the impression with law schools we’re drastically changing our policies about recruiting.”
Citing a report by the National Association for Law Placement, the NYLJ reports a total of 2,400 law school graduates were deferred last year when in the midst of the recession
Where is Sonia?? And what does she think of all this??
These kids should forget about compiling charts and graphs on salaries and make sure they are earning salaries. This is no time to fool around.
I am also a staff attorney at S&C. It's the biggest scam ever. Although I am 4 feet high and always high [on prescriptions] and graduated from St Johns I pull in $120,000 a year. Yes, much of it is made as I sleep in caserooms at night. I also save money by banging the maid, eating people's food in the fridge, taking cars home, stealing supplies and cutlery and selling it on Ebay. I just can't believe I got this lucky. With my TTT degree I would have been lucky to be polishing shoes in this economy.
Yeah, this one will definitely be a tough sell, but a completely noble endeavor.
http://jobless-attorney-roundtable.blogspot.com/
I went to New York Law School. Although it is top in the city now and boasts a big roster, it is hard to justify the cost now.
They say cream rises to the top but there are no guarantees and you could be stuck with a lot of debt.
Anything going on at Barasshole?
Anyone register with Beacon Hill?? Do these people have any jobs???
Fuck Beacon Hill New York. The chick that runs is spent a decade at Update and is all kissy kissy with those low-level gals. If you've ever been blacklisted by Update [for whatever inane reason those community college gals came up with] don't even bothering wasting the $4.40 in subway fare. Beacon Hill will not place you.
Beacon Hill New York has a LOT of work right now. They are calling people for multiple projects starting on Tuesday.
Hi Elaine
6:59 or Elaine - same thing - as somone said before Beacon will not place you if you have been blacklisted by Update [usually because you are smarter or prettier than those ghetto chicks]. And that is more than half the temp population - as we all know Update will blacklist you if you don't bow down and suck them everyday. Talk about low self-esteem.
All,
Thought I'd check in to let everybody know I am still workin and still bangin bitches. It must be either the dollars or the size of my cock. Either way, the bitches booty's are so na-na-na-na-na-na-nasty!
Very Truly Yours,
Better in her Ass'er
www.bettercoderthanyou.com
Better coder, you are an interesting character.
Though, I wonder what's up with your obsession about jeans. Every other post, you talk about buying some new pairs of jeans. A unique character quirk.
Thanks for the tip on Beacon Hill. I worked for Update close to 5 years in the early and mid-1990s. I made them alot of money.
For some reason, I was blacklisted by a recruiter who I understand resented the fact that I was blonde, thin, pretty, came from a well heeled background, regardless of how equally hard I have worked as any other attorney from any background, including not privileged (and have done so without any benefits coming my way once an attorney due to past privileged background etc).
If that is true of Beacon Hill, that it is former Update gals, trust me that the advice once blacklisted at Update, you won't be called by Beacon Hill is true.
Example, I submitted my resume to BH twice, and not once heard back from them, although a similarly situated colleagues did hear back from them. It is called envy,jealousy, and some sick logic of giving a sort of payback to a stranger for what life didn't give you. It is sick and unprofessional. That is why they are a recuiter and no more.
Petty brains and perspective. Life isn't fair. It is a myth there is and ever will be complete economic equality.
When are they going stop taking it out on those who had a different opportunity and path in life.
Class and race warfare exists between and amongst NYC recruiters.
6:39. Let's face it. If you are the creme de la creme like me be prepared for a lot of hatred from the lower classes - especially fat ugly chicks. How come I always do well with the partners and associates and NEVER with recruiters? They never pass on my resume to the top dogs. Whenever I do it myself, I get the job. Recruiters like to push ugly chicks [who will be forever grateful] or guys [they can blow]. They are not worth my time.
Yes I also heard the fact chick running Beacon Hill worked at Update for 15 years. She was BFF with all the lowly recruiters there. Yes, if you were ever blacklisted by Update do not expect the fat chick from BH to call you EVER.
It does not matter if you were blacklisted because some hood rat recruiter was envious of you. They don't care - they are just looking for an excuse to get rid of the smart pretty girls. Find a male recruiter or a lesbian.
Why so much hate towards Beacon Hill?
In a momentof weakness after being ejected from BIGLAW, I signed up for numerous temp agencies. Thankfully no working in house, I get emails every so often (of the form variety) trumpeting newdoc review projects on the horizon.
I am thankful I do not have to do this (for now). I commiserate with you folks, truly. The temp recruiter shops are of the lowest character I have had the misfortune of dealing with. True scumbags. Not sure how they sleep at night.
I am a pretty and smart girl. Lesbian recruiters and male recruiters always place me. Old seasoned women recruiters also place me. The young hood rat recruiters NEVER place me. But they do place saddlebag queens with stinky weaves.
I ran into Better Coder last Friday night at Tao, he just came off a 80 hour priv log workweek and had two Dutch models in each arm. His Versace jeans were spectacular.
I went to Hofstra (or any other 3rd tier) and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.I went to Hofstra (or any other 3rd tier) and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.I went to Hofstra (or any other 3rd tier) and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.I went to Hofstra (or any other 3rd tier) and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.I went to Hofstra (or any other 3rd tier) and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.I went to Hofstra (or any other 3rd tier) and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.I went to Hofstra (or any other 3rd tier) and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.
SLABS or Student Loan Asset Backed Securities is the new MBS!!!!! European banks are buying up student debt like they used to buy mortgages.
SLABS is going to be the cause of the next global market meltdown!!
I ran into Better Coder at a leather bar in Greenwich Village. He had two Dutch guys doing him from behind. He was screaming like a girl.
They then took the little money he had in his wallet and left him in the gutter with a bloody nose and whip marks.
I think 2:53's description of Better Coder sounds more likely. Better Coder is not doing anyone - least of all a girl. His obsession with jeans and clothes show he is obviously gay.
Better Coder is a small fry. I like his picture though. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but sharp enough. A one-eyed man is king in the land of blind.
From Chicago Tribune via The Huffington Post:
Is the Foolproof Law Degree Becoming an Endangered Species?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/27/is-the-foolproof-law-degr_n_553547.html
'Course it is...
Please, they were saying the same things 20 years ago about law and lawyers...blah blah blah blah. It's always been this way....
It's nice to see a blog that exposes the truth. I am a 2007 Vanderbilt Law grad and graduated unemployed. My current position pays 40k and will end soon as it is temporary. It's difficult digging out of a law school loan debt hole of 114k. If I could do it over, I NEVER would have went to Vandy. It has a low ranking at least for me being an Ivy league graduate. Sigh...
More transparency, even if achieveable, will likely solve nothing. I remember when I was in a class at the beginning of college and the professor asked, "how many of you think you will graduate in the top 10%?" and more than half the class raised their hands. Clearly most were wrong. But it was telling about our ability to realistically assess our odds of success.
There have been scores of articles published about the plight of lawyers, and yet applications continue to increase, because yes, some lawyers are very successful. Indeed, even some third-tier graduates are very successful. It is human nature to believe that you will be one of them.
Yet, transparency is not the issue. Everyone knows the odds of making it big in acting are astronomical. But any visit to a Hollywood cafe will tell you there is no shortage of those who would try.
I don't think most people who go to law school are motivated by a shot at a middling salary and a mediocre job. More, it is a chance to make $160,000 right out of school, a chance to make millions as a trial lawyer, or a chance to save the world that motivates applicants. As long as such lofty goals are the motivator, no matter how few achieve them, there will be a surplus of students.
No amount of 'transparency' or hard facts will dissuade people who cannot realistically assess their odds.
It's a big mistake for Ivy undergrads to downgrade themself to a school like "Vandy" a worthless ripoff.
I went to a decent undergrad then to Brooklyn Law. Was it worth it? Definitely no! BLS is a top school and has a big network, but not worth the big debtload.
Don't believe Joan King's rhetoric your money is paying for her cush retirement in Florida sipping Mint Julips with Elaine Dine.
I would like the recruiters to STOP calling me in their fake baby voices!!!! They are NOT little girls who don't have their period - then why do they talk like one. I am so sick of their girly what-is-a-penis voices. Talk like the grown woman you are. You obviously fuck, are fat as a cow - use and abuse and exploit us, knowingly let us down at the nth hour and then call in your BABY voice. You are not that inncocent and sweet AND NO ONE IS BUYING IT BITCH.
I tell ya, the only thing transparent about law school are the negligees the 1L chicks wear when they blow their professors! A's all the way, baby!
Ba dum bum...
Yah, I'm here all week. I tell ya...
women who are 1L's know that it pays to offer yourself to your professors.
In the solo practitioners office you better get used to "play time" and to be riding the fat greasy bald partner like a horse with your tongue down his throat and his hands wiping pizza grease on your tits.
"I am the holder of a doctorate in jurisprudence and an officer of the court."
You are all a bunnch of idiots and numbskulls. Where is Sonia???? Has that old bird expired?
I am Sheriff Buford T. Justice - a distinguished officer of the law of over 30 year seniority.
3:44. You are right. Law is now a gutter profession. If you are a woman you have to take it in some hole - I am now going to pee in any solos coffee's if he bothers me.
I recently went to interview with a solo who looked like big white whale. Plus he had herpes sores all over his lips - probably from banging his Trinadian lady secretary as well as his effiminate phone boy. Although I am broke and starving the minute I saw thie LARDY PIG I threw up in the bathroom and said HELL NOOOOOO, NOOOOOO, NOOOOOO, NOOOOOO!!!!!!
Even if I decided to take some crack and give him a hand job I would not have found his cocktail weiner shlong in all those rolls of fat dripping over his crotch like melted cheese.
Pee in coffee, place buggers on his keyboard - especially if I am sick. Maybe I will also rub my ass on his computer.
Pee in coffee, place buggers on his keyboard - especially if I am sick. Maybe I will also rub my ass on his computer.
This is quite the endeavor for two students to tackle. Law schools want to educate their students and make money; law school transparency certainly sounds like a way to take away from the money that law schools are making. In order to be considered the best law school there are a number of criteria that law schools need to meet. If law school transparency were to become the new standard for comparing law schools, some of the top schools probably would not be sitting at the top for very long. This is a very controversial subject, and I look forward to reading more about it in the future.
I am very happy with the legal education I am getting from Concord. I am especially pleased with the instructors and lecturers many of whom have top credentials. I am an executive with a software company and would never get through a traditional law school program due to the class attendance requirements. I frequently travel internationally for weeks at a time. Without Concord, I would have no hope of advancing my career through an ..
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