Above the Law almost imploded today with a stream of steady negative layoff news. As of noon, Dechert, Bryan Cave, Goodwin Procter have all axed dozens of associates. Apparently, more layoff news is on the way.
I am sorry to say that anyone who is expecting an uptick in the temporary document review market this year is going to be sorely disappointed. Not only do we have to compete with dozens of highly qualified out of work former associates, but the floodgates opened by the ABA Indian legal outsourcing opinion will continue to suck out of the country any last remaining remnants of legal scrap work.
621 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 621 Newer› Newest»Here's the layoff list, courtesy of the AmericanLawyer.com. Read it and weep:
http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?id=1202425647706
Who hasn't seen permatemps who never seem to be working become friendly with recruiters and be given so-called A list status?
1:27
They're probably snitching on people to become friendly with the recruiters. All that does is get you stuck as a temp. Nobody promotes them and they get fired as soon as there's a shakeup in management. Then they're out there with 4 years temp experience and no skills. They have to start at the bottom again, but this time they're not used to it.
Besides, you guys miss the point. You need to become specialized in an area. Otherwise, you're always at the bottem of the totem pole so to speak and have to kiss ass to get projects. No one respects the temps either. To everybody else you're some idiot who can't get a real job.
As soon as you get experience you get out of the doc. review trap or can land the higher paying reviews.
Having a specialized skill is also useful. Then you can find the higher paying work and they have to treat you nicely. Once you have experience or a skill that's hard to find temping becomes a way to bridge the gap between doing what you want and making money to support it.
You have to think long term. You can't review docs for the next 15 years. You have to find a way to get out, and it's not relly that hard to do.
11:52 Deloitte is looking for doc reviewers in India.
151
You not make assumptions.
opps
That should read: "You should not make assumptions."
1:51AM asserts that it's not that hard to get out of temping - yet doesn't offer a single suggestion - of course it's easy to quit and collect Unemployment - apparently he's one of those people who think lawyers temp because of a lack of intelligence, drive, ambition etc. NOT because temping actually pays better than crappy small law firms and legal aid - since it's not that hard to get out, we should be flooding Sullivan, Cravath and Skadden with our resumes for associate positions
or maybe 1:51AM is one of those myopic "I'm working and so are a handful of friends, so there is no legal recession" folks
As far as I can tell, there are 3 ways of making the A-List with recruiters, they feel some bond with you, they think you're cute or you're a snitch.
It is the opinion of Deloitte, which got into doc review by acquiring Barrasso (a consulting agency heavily into outsourcing to India)that doc review is legal work. On its web page about its doc review services it states,
Since Deloitte Financial Advisory Services, LLP (Deloitte FAS) does not engage in the practice of law, its services are provided under the direction and supervision of client’s legal counsel, who establish document review guidelines.
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/section_node/0,1042,sid%25253D169126,00.html
www.deloitte.com/
dtt/section_node/0,1042,sid%25253D169126,00.
html
Posting long links seems to be a problem here but you can get to the Deloitte doc review page by going to
www.barrassoconsulting.com
This stuff about how u can always get a doc review job in Westfield NJ is bogus. A lot of NJ reviewers are on ue and can't find anything there or here.
This stuff about how u can always get a doc review job in Westfield NJ is bogus. A lot of NJ reviewers are on ue and can't find anything there or here.
It's alnost impossibe to get that gig. They conduct group interviews (10 people per interview) and conduct paper coding tests in the room with 10 people.
Let's put it this way, I have over 5 years experience and managed doc reviews and I didn't get selected.
So it is likely to be a waste of time. Does anyone know what percentage of applicants they hire?
They always seems to be hiring and are probably incredibly picky. All this to work in NJ for $29 per hour.
Desperate subhumans like all of you who will do anything for money will eventually burn in hell.
But there is hope to avoid that fate. Why don't you redeem yourself and go to nursing school instead? It is a well paid profession and unlike what you do now your work is meaningful and respected in society and you won't be outsourced. The only thing is that you would have to try your hardest not to complain about not being a doctor. In fact, you may even get humane treatment from the doctors you work for unlike the ABA, associates, LPO's, partners and agencies who don't even consider you a human being. Don't be stupid and continue wasting your time on something that you have totally failed at and can't fix.
Really, what kind of moron would
come to a blog for doc reviewers to say,"Desperate subhumans like all of you who will do anything for money will eventually burn in hell"?
Really, what kind of moron would
come to a blog for doc reviewers to say,"Desperate subhumans like all of you who will do anything for money will eventually burn in hell" and be referring to doc reviewers?
It looks like somebody struck a chord...sorry Roach Boy!
12:44 are they even interviewing now? Where's the contact info? I'll spend a day going to NJ to get tested and rejected. At least it would be a change from sitting at home and clicking on cl all day.
1:27 sounds like you're a troll or a mental case, or both.
12:44 does "always hiring" mean always firing too? Do you think they really are/were hiring or are/were just signing people up? Do you know anyone who ever got picked?
1:11
Answer: the same moron who is telling you that nursing is a better career than anything that you will ever be going for you. What a moron!
1:02
Soundz like someone doesn't like attorneys. Maybe be because generally (not now) we don't have to work hard and make lots of money.
I'd rather get paid more to isit in an office and click (only when I can't find something better) than work around sick people all day.
Too bad you didn't go to law school, buddy.
My sources told me that there are a few projects in Philly, but they are also extremely short and the pay is ridiculously low.
3:28 - this blog as a whole is not exactly the best source to motivate people to sign up for law school.
3:28 - this blog as a whole is not exactly the best source to motivate people to sign up for law school.
_______________________
Why would we want to do that? Almost all of us are unemployed. But anyone coming here just to insult doc reviewers is a mental case, a troll or both.
3:28 I think trying to help sick people actually is a good thing even though I also don't think anyone should insult us for becoming attorneys and doing doc review. When it's around we can make $100,00 a year doing it in a casual atmosphere while listening to music. That's much better than making a fraction of that doing ten times as much work for a sole practitioner or small firm.
This article is from Time Magazine from almost last year forecasting what is going on now. Look at these two Indian twats.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1727726,00.html
OT: It's funny when I see adds by recruiters that are wrong. You can tell that the recruiter does not know anything about the industry. For example, I just saw a listening for a patent attorney in which it said 3 years of patent prosecution/practice in front of PTO, but then says Patent Bar preferred, but not required. Is this recruiter completely clueless about the fact you can't have 3 years of patent experience as they describe without being admitted to the patent bar?
I mention this because its funny to think these are the people who fill job orders.
I think it's funny that your sad, pathetic means of employment depends on them.
107
You are illogical. Can you figure out why?
Why don't you redeem yourself and go to nursing school instead? It is a well paid profession and unlike what you do now your work is meaningful and respected in society and you won't be outsourced.
___________________________________
How about being "in-sourced," when they bring a raft of surly old bags over from the Phillipines on H-1Bs, to do your job for half the pay?
And I hardly thinking ignoring the desperate pleas of post-triple bypass patients begging for meds while you head out for your 10th smoke break, or changing the catheter of some Hooters waitress who decided to exchange her C-cup saline for DD silicone, counts as "meaningful work that is respected in society."
You nurses kill me with your self-aggrandizing bullshit--you're almost as bad as lawyers.
9:18, What is funny is how you wrote "add" instead of ad.
http://www.legalsupportpersonnel.com/legal-industry-insight/outsourcing-legal-work/
Check this out. It is from the LSP website. The title is
Outsourcing Your Legal Work? Think Again
http://www.legalsupportpersonnel.com/legal-industry-insight/outsourcing-legal-work/
Check this out. It is from the LSP website. The title is
Outsourcing Your Legal Work? Think Again
Why Hiring an Offshore Legal Firm May Cost You More in the Long Run
I asked on the Philly temp blog about what's going on there and got this response:
Anonymous said...
Here's what I can come up with based on people I've talked to and this site and others:
Dechert (staffed by Hudson): Vioxx/Vytorin, they just had their four-year anniversary, and it doesn't seem to be shutting down anytime soon. There are rumors of them moving it across the street from 2 Logan to the Bell-Atlantic Tower. Last I heard, they started at $27 an hour (with time and a half for OT) but had a freeze on raises (people who have been there more than 18 months get $35 an hour. Supposedly, they just hired 12 to 15 people and even added a few staff attorneys. I’ve also heard there are ongoing, smaller projects at Cira Center.
Pepper Hamilton (direct hire, or staffed by HIRECounsel, or staffed by Special Counsel): Zyprexa, Avandia, don't know what the Special Counsel thing is. I've heard direct hires are for either Zyprexa or Avandia and pay $38, but the unlucky HIRECounsel folk are hired exclusively for Zyprexa and are paid $30. So why does ANYONE go there through HC? Because not everyone knows about the direct-hire route, which isn't advertised. I doubt they'll be doing any hiring anytime soon with the Zyprexa settlement and the 200 hours a month/ 10 hours a day cap on hours.
Stradley (staffed by JuriStaff & Special Counsel): Avandia. Pays $35/hour, down from the $40/hour it used to be with Oxford Legal and Special Counsel. Limited hours, are they currently hiring? Who knows how much longer it has to go? After all, with Zyprexa settling maybe Pepper Hamilton will take back the Avandia work.
McCarter English (staffed by Hudson): Seroquel. I don't know what that pays but that project only has a small skeleton crew working on it, and it's unlikely there will be any new hires for the duration of the project.
Morgan Lewis (Providus): Some non-pharmaceutical thing. Pays a nice $35+OT, but I don't know if they'll be doing anymore hiring for the duration of the project. Work seems to be slow to the point of being almost nonexistent at Morgan’s regular review space in the basement adjacent to Suburban Station.
Montgomery McCracken (HIRECounsel). Pharmaceutical case. Pays $30/hour straight time. Smaller project. Just hired people and probably won’t be adding.
Then there's always work at the plaintiff's firm Barroway in Radnor (staffed by HIRECounsel) for a yucky $28/hour, where they reportedly have cameras on the contract attorneys. If you live in the suburbs you won't have to pay Philly wage tax, but so what, it's $28/hour in oppressive working conditions.
Wow, seriously have cameras on them? WTF.
http://twitter.com/docreview
Oops. Some of the response to my Philly temp question was cut off, so here's the whole response on what's happening there
Anonymous said...
Here's what I can come up with based on people I've talked to and this site and others:
Dechert (staffed by Hudson): Vioxx/Vytorin, they just had their four-year anniversary, and it doesn't seem to be shutting down anytime soon. There are rumors of them moving it across the street from 2 Logan to the Bell-Atlantic Tower. Last I heard, they started at $27 an hour (with time and a half for OT) but had a freeze on raises (people who have been there more than 18 months get $35 an hour. Supposedly, they just hired 12 to 15 people and even added a few staff attorneys. I’ve also heard there are ongoing, smaller projects at Cira Center.
Pepper Hamilton (direct hire, or staffed by HIRECounsel, or staffed by Special Counsel): Zyprexa, Avandia, don't know what the Special Counsel thing is. I've heard direct hires are for either Zyprexa or Avandia and pay $38, but the unlucky HIRECounsel folk are hired exclusively for Zyprexa and are paid $30. So why does ANYONE go there through HC? Because not everyone knows about the direct-hire route, which isn't advertised. I doubt they'll be doing any hiring anytime soon with the Zyprexa settlement and the 200 hours a month/ 10 hours a day cap on hours.
Stradley (staffed by JuriStaff & Special Counsel): Avandia. Pays $35/hour, down from the $40/hour it used to be with Oxford Legal and Special Counsel. Limited hours, are they currently hiring? Who knows how much longer it has to go? After all, with Zyprexa settling maybe Pepper Hamilton will take back the Avandia work.
McCarter English (staffed by Hudson): Seroquel. I don't know what that pays but that project only has a small skeleton crew working on it, and it's unlikely there will be any new hires for the duration of the project.
Morgan Lewis (Providus): Some non-pharmaceutical thing. Pays a nice $35+OT, but I don't know if they'll be doing anymore hiring for the duration of the project. Work seems to be slow to the point of being almost nonexistent at Morgan’s regular review space in the basement adjacent to Suburban Station.
Montgomery McCracken (HIRECounsel). Pharmaceutical case. Pays $30/hour straight time. Smaller project. Just hired people and probably won’t be adding.
Then there's always work at the plaintiff's firm Barroway in Radnor (staffed by HIRECounsel) for a yucky $28/hour, where they reportedly have cameras on the contract attorneys. If you live in the suburbs you won't have to pay Philly wage tax, but so what, it's $28/hour in oppressive working conditions.
JuriStaff recently was looking for people for a short-term (one to two month project), but it was a plaintiffs firm, the hours were extremely limited, you were required to take an hour unpaid break, and there even was a set start time for your workday.
JuriStaff and Special Counsel also have a pharmaceutical review at Reed Smith. It pays $35 an hour. You can pretty much work as much as you want, but it pays straight time. However, this project probably will be wrapping up soon.
There's also that $35/hour HIRECounsel gig in Blue Bell as someone else mentioned. Also for whatever it's worth, HIRECounsel and Special Counsel had a flurry of ads in January. I don't know what else they have besides the aforementioned jobs. Kelly Legal also posted a couple of ads for Center City gigs. I know that they do some work for Dechert.
There also are ongoing jobs down in Wilmington, but they tend to pay $30 or so, and who really wants to work in Wilmington?
Does anyone know if there any jobs at Ballard Spahr, Blank Rome or other firms going on right now? If so, who staffs them, what do they pay, and how long are they slated to last? This blog really could be a resource to take power away from the parasites such as Denise Asnes and Julie Dailey. We should be sharing information. Despite what the firms and agencies might tell you, you can share information about what firm you are working at, what you are being paid and what the work conditions are like.
February 19, 2009 7:51 AM
Thanks for the Philly information.
And here's what's going on in New York City:
(sound of crickets)
(sound of crickets)
(sound of crickets)
Wait a minute, there is a Japenese doc review in Midtown paying $100 per hour, but you need to be fluent in Japanese, run a 40 yard dash in 4.4 seconds, be able to juggle, and have Concordance experience.
The economy stinks right now. All we can do is plan for the future. Save your money, and hopefully we'll get out of this recession soon!
It was extremely thoughtful for the blogger to provide the information about current temp doc review jobs....good human being.
2:49 I agree, very thoughtful
Doesn't the Posse List post this stuff?
Posselist only posts ads agencies place with it, not an accurate 360 degree view of what's really going on.
Anyone ever tried following court filings to track coming need for document reviewers?
11:20 is bitter. I think we need to call the authorities: harm to self and others. Mental breakdown.
Check out LAAP.
http://www.cpaglobal.com/about_cpa This kind of arrangement really makes me wonder about the popular, ignorant, apocraphyl belief that Bill Gates is the devil.
Outsourcing as a Business Model
Download the PDF version of this case study
Microsoft® is the world's leading computer technology company and securing their IP portfolio requires extensive collaboration from all business units. It has a complete end-to-end business process in the territory from research to support maintaining its 'Realising India's Potential' Programme. CPA Global has worked closely with Microsoft since 2005 in deploying a variety of IP solutions which have helped them successfully launch outsourcing as a business model.
For Marty Shively, legal process outsourcing (LPO) isn't simply a business choice. So committed is he to its long-term potential that he has transferred to Delhi, India with his wife and three children. As Microsoft's Associate General Counsel and Director of Worldwide IP Operations, Marty explains how CPA Global's Intellevate team has helped Microsoft maximise the potential of patent prosecution management in the territory.
The Company
Microsoft is the world's leading computer technology company: developing, manufacturing, licensing and supporting a wide range of software products for computing devices. It is perhaps best known for its Windows® operating system and the Microsoft Office suite of productivity software.
The company has had a presence in India since 1990 when it opened its first research and development (R&D) centre. Since then it has worked closely with the Indian government, IT industry, academia and local development community to help develop IT outsourcing in the area. While the United States remains the major hub for their IP management, the work Microsoft outsources to India supports their worldwide portfolio.
Today, it has a complete end-to-end business process in the territory (from research to support), employing over 4,000 people across six business units and investing heavily in the local infrastructure through its 'Realising India's Potential' Programme.
Business Challenges
Before working with CPA Global , Microsoft used a mixture of in-house and out-of house counsel to manage its patent portfolio. But the system was costly and unwieldy.
Marty Shively explains: 'Over the course of my career at Microsoft, my team became responsible for managing the budget of the patent group. At the time, we were using out-of-house counsel for most activities but we were not keeping up with tightening budgets, quality of work was hard to manage and administrative tasks were being dealt with last. It took a couple of years of changes and false starts until we developed a better mix of resources including in-house staff and outside vendors, and LPO in India is playing an ever more important role in that strategy.'
The figures speak for themselves: 'This fiscal year [ending 30 June], Microsoft will spend about $3m on its patent LPO services in India,' says Marty. 'If you estimate that work at US pricing, that's $9.5m worth of work at about $6.5m cost saving. For a company the size of Microsoft that may seem negligible, but for our department, that's a significant sum of money.'
reality check
again- you keep citing articles from outsourcers. google the subject without a predetermined goal in m ind. it pretty much says there is little to no outsourcing regarding writing patents, and that the small part that this did represents, due to the PTO ruling is now going to be extremely difficult given the rules about national security.
By the way, if you want to know why in the IP area you will see a chilling of outsourcing, read this article:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Infotech/Upaid_suit_puts_IP_deals_under_lens/articleshow/4102381.cms
It covers how there were not proper assignment of rights regarding work for hire situations (from what I read of it).
Here's the point- these kinds of mistakes will increase. We forget that here, in the US, although lawyers tend to make mistakes its within the understanding of the laws here. With the new outsourcing, there is a steepo learning curve. Here, that curve in this case is costing someone $1 bil. Now imagine of that continues. Like I said, I don't see outsourcing continuing for much longer than it will take to total take down some major US company. Then you will see a reversal of trend.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/lgl/1041969552.html
Anyone know who's staffing this? Chicago agencies have been particularly shifty lately.
How about going after the use of paralegals to do doc review as the unauthorized practice of law? We went to law school and took the bar exam but we can't get legal work because law firms are using them as though there were no difference between their rinky dink qualifications and our 3 years of law school, followed by passing the bar and getting admitted. We should at least be allowed toconvert our attorney status into paralegal status so we can work too.
That was a solid Time article linked above. I'm trying to discuss it at my Twitter page,
http://twitter.com/docreview
11:33
Well there's a big difference between firms using a U.S. trained paralegal and some cheap corporation sending work to poorly trained Indians with a wildly under-qualified command of U.S. English.
I don't see a problem with big firms using paralegals as long as they are working at the firm (And not from home), because that would satisfy the ethics requirements.
On the other hand, paralegals should not be doing document review because of the inherent lack of supervision. (We've all been on gigs were the staff attorney was some mysterious figure who crept into the coding room for 5 minutes once a month.)
11:33 outsourcing should stop immediately but the use of paralegals is taking away far more jobs from attorneys. If you don't have to be an attorney to do legal work, it is not a profession. It is being reduced to a pretense of a profession where a few attorneys who aren't really supervising anyone just sign off on non-attorneys. We aren't even considered for paralegal jobs. They are getting all of the legal jobs here while we are on ue. They should not be doing any substantive work; they are not attorneys. If the whole concept of law as a profession is over, we should be eligible for paralegal status so we don't become homeless while they are all working.
Meant 8:07 not 11:33
The truth is that most firms use US trained attorneys for doc review or a reason. This shields them from liability.
Paras do doc coding and non-substantive work for the most part. Perhaps more will be doing full DR work as they bring the work back from the Slumdog callcenter workers of Mumbai.
Either way, a loss for the ever crumblin LPOs.
The LPO thing is doomed to failure; the question is how long it will last if the bar associations don't take back their permission slip. Can we afford to wait and see?
As for paralegals, I have seen them used not only for first tier review but for QC and priv. They are a real threat to our livelihood because they are being used more and more to do more and more. At the same time, attorney jobs keep drying up. This is not a coincidence. It is the handiwork of the bar associations who have given permission for this so they can screw their fellow attorneys out of jobs and hire cheaper non-attorneys who will not expect more. Everyday there are more and more ads for paralegals and they are creeping into substantive legal work. A lot of the so-called attorney glut would be eased if the use of paralegals as substitute attorneys ended. There are probably lots of instances where their use could be challenged as the unauthorized practice of law. Can we really afford to nothing because we think outsourcing will end? That could take years.
If you don't have to be an attorney to do legal work, it is not a profession. It is being reduced to a pretense of a profession where a few attorneys who aren't really supervising anyone just sign off on non-attorneys.
___________________________________
It's still a profession, it's just a profession that won't employ you.
2:31 It's just a so-called profession at this point and it's not employing a lot of attorneys - more and more all the time in case you are so uninformed that you somehow didn't notice. Of course, it's more likely that you're some idiot LPO troll than that you actually don't know that.
The para thing is retarded. Most paras are perm staff and not interested in doing any of this bs. They often perform the adminstrative functions related to DR. They help get cars, facilitate for the associates. The staff attorneys do the grunt work for the associates for the substantive aspects of the review. The lit support group deals with technical matters.
Aynone who believes that firms are hiring paras to do doc review on a widespread basis, is delusional. No decent law firm would do this.
Again, just lame, moronic idiot LPO hucksters who've never actually been inside a real large US law firm are trying to stir up trouble.
Are there some paras that do it, sure. But most firms would have attorneys do it, for too many reasons to enumerate here. There's no way they ever contemplate being so stupid as to use paras for anything but the most mundane data entry tasks - like the work that Indian LPO "Attorneys" do.
It's just another example of how utterly misinformed and dangersously incompetent these LPO losers are. They have no idea what constitutes the practice of law in the United States.
I used to think Indians were intelligent as a group. But if these LPO used car salesman are any indication, they're not too bright.
Well I'm not about to name the firm but I know at least one major firm that has paralegals doing tier one and two review, priv and QC. Maybe you are a paralegal or have friends who are, but it is ridiculous to claim that paralegals are not cutting deeply into work done by attorneys. I think you are the fake.
BTW I think outsourcing to LPO sweatshops is malpractice as well as the unauthorized practice of law. It should be stopped immediately.
Absurd, flame on...
From JDU - Tom to blame for dearth of doc review gigs:
Author: fukdat
Subject: In the old days people would bitch about doc review, now
they beg for it
Time: February 20, 2009 - 11:00 am
in the old days tom the temp would complain about $50 hour doc review in tiny rooms.
soon there will be a website reminiscing on those "good old days." People would kill to do doc review for $50/hour in a tiny cramped room.
is there a lesson here?
Author: fukdat
Time: February 20, 2009 - 2:15 pm
This thread received an interestingly low number of replies.
Author: trollsniffer
Time: February 20, 2009 - 2:23 pm
You can blame Tom the Temp. He made it seem a lot worse than it was. I enjoyed working at Paul Weiss and making tons of cash, free meals. The people that complained are useless.
6:04 Flame on? It's common knowledge that paralegals are being used more and more to do legal work that would otherwise be done by attorneys. You're probably a paralegal yourself or have friends who are.
6:14 I would be celebrating big time if I got called to go to Paul Weiss but it probably isn't Tom's fault. If the economy was going well and biglaw wasn't going through a crisis, there would be a lot more projects here.
I didn't agree with all the whining either. I thought being able to make so much money doing doc review was great, even where they didn't feed us.
Who knew Tom had the power to bring down the entire economy with a blog.
Tom is not the problem, and you shouldn't post other people's post from a different web site and post here, that's highly unethical.
In other news, the Posse List is now saying that the work is coming back, just to lower cost centers in the USA, NOT INDIA.
Sorry, Rahul.
http://www.theposselist.com/2009/02/20/contract-attorney-
work-grows-but-in-onshore-centers-not-india/
http://www.theposselist.com/2009/02/20/
contract-attorney-work-grows-but-in-onshore
-centers-not-india/
The posse list says something different every 5 minutes. At the end of last year,the posse list said there would be lots of work here in January. Then it said, no never mind, it's in India. The posse list's reporting is a joke.If it is right on anything, it is because it has taken every possible position on what could be happening. One of them must be right.
Hopefully within the next couple of months, the Posse List will be writing about doc review returning to NYC. It could happen. Now they're making it sound like the whole outsourcing theory for the disappearance of doc review here was very overblown. Maybe the idea that doc review is gone from here and never coming back will also turn out to be totally overblown.
Frankly I'd rather the doc review work go to paralegals in the US than attorneys in India.
If the work remains in the US, it would be shared between paralegals and attorneys, with the better-paid jobs going to the attorneys.
If it slips away to India, it ain't coming back unless we put up a concerted, aggressive fight on all fronts, and knowing how complacent and apathetic most temp attorneys are, even in the face of a direct threat to their livelihoods, I just don't see such a fight happening.
11:41 The Posse List now is saying offshoring to India is not such a big deal after all because lots of firms and their clients want nothing to do with it. Now they are saying that the work is going to less expensive areas of the U.S. where the rents and other costs are lower. I would think that would mean there is a strong possibility that we will see work coming back here because the agencies will figure out how to provide less expensive space, etc. It's worth their while. What do you think?
I think that it's clear that we have tough economic times, so all bets are off. Some of these companies are talking about getting nationalized!
So I don't think the Posse List or anyone else really knows what is going on. We just have to keep looking and hoping. Hang in there, things will get better soon.
Remember, Citibank was the big client that most of us worked on in the "roach infested basement" of Paul Weiss. They are doing the worst of all, it sucks.
So we have to wait for the dust to settle. Many of the reviews used to require NY barred attorneys, those will have to come back.
So let's not get shrill or start blaming para or India. In the end things will settle down to a more normal state. We're just dealing with crazy times.
Agree that we don't need mass hysteria. These are crazy times. A substantial amount of work may wind up coming back. We just have to wait and see.
yeah citibank and bank of america after the stress test is done maybe heading for receivership.
one thing- I don't see any litigation etc that comes out of that going abroad.
in the stimulus package, for example, one of the big items was that everyone , dem and republican, supported the buy america provision.
there is a strong sense of economic nationalism growing right now.
and, before the cynics start their schtick, i don't think politicians are changing.
i think that the way the game is played is not by any rules we have seen in decades, and thus, all bets are off.
when you got the superwealthy scared, the game starts to change just so that they can feel safe. right now, they are scared because of the potential collapse.
Isn't it ironic that we're trained to be advocates and zealously represent our clients, but we can't advocate for ourselves against outsourcing?
We're lawyers for Christ's sake, not auto workers. We can fight this!
ROFL!!!!
http://www.xtranormal.com/xtranormal/episode.php?aid=104560&mid=20090221064834161
I agree with a lot of the latest blog spots about paras, outsourcing, the state of the economy, things coming back, the fact that The Posse List, despite it's attempt at "investigating" the state of doc review, is clueless just like the rest of us. One thing I disagree with is the comment about Bank of America. Bank of America should be renamed Bank of India. They are/were one of the biggest outsourcers of document review to India through such agents as DiscoveReady, which requires its document reviewers to read 100 docs per hour because it gets paid by the document (--how unethical is that? --talk about malpractice!). They run a tight ship, cutting costs everywhere, and when they outsource to India, they should be ashamed to call themselves "Bank of America." When Bank of America becomes nationalized (and I hope it does), the government better keep its jobs in America.
oops -- its, not it's
12:15 AM
Thanks for the answer. I think you're right and Posse is right, the work is going to less-expensive cities in the US -- in droves. All you have to do is google "document review" and "legal" or "attorneys" and you'll come up with a number of boards or lists that purport to list "all" of the ongoing doc review projects in the US, or the ones that are being recruited for now.
It's incredible how many projects are going to smaller US cities now... it's really a revolution. (When I say "smaller" I really mean non-traditional cities. The traditional cities have the biggest pools of lawyers: NYC, DC, LA, Boston and maybe Chicago).
Now I see tons of doc reviews listed in Philly, Houston, and even lots of smaller cities like Portland, Wilmington DE, Tulsa, Pittsburgh, Richmond...
Look at this ad from HIRECounsel for a doc review in Richmond...
http://jobview.monster.com/GetJob.aspx?JobID=75087708&from=indeed
It says you must "live in Richmond". What's up with that? Richmond is about 1.5 hours from DC. Why don't they just do the project in DC where there are more available lawyers?
Probably because there are unemployed lawyers in Richmond, too, and they cost less (and the rent cost less, too... and taxes are lower... etc.)
The fact that they are shifting doc review projects out of the more traditional markets to nearby less-expensive markets is very significant.
Doc review jobs that 2 years ago would have been called in DC are now moving to Philly, Wilmington DE and Richmond, VA!
Don't know if these'll start flowing back to the bigger markets where most unemployed attorneys waiting around for permanent law firm jobs... It may happen when the economy improves, but when will that be? Two years from now?
1148
Since I am the one that mentioned Bank of America, I think you should re-read the post, and explain to me how your post demonstrates a disagreement with my commment. The whole point of discussing the receivership is that it's impact will be to continue the push toward Buy America (which is in the stimulus). I don't know if it will happen, but I do know that what I said is essentially what you repeated in a different way.
One more thing regarding the Richmond HIRECounsel project -
Note in the link I posted that the project is "an online review project", but the work takes place in Richmond and the dress code is "dress casual". Online doesn't mean working from home in this case. There is a facility in Richmond where the work is happening. Plus they want reviewers to LIVE IN RICHMOND.
The only reason for this has to be that it's a fairly big project in size, and the lease of the facility costs a lot less in Richmond than it would in DC. They may have had to get a short-term lease on an open-plan office suite or warehouse-type room.
Big agencies like HIRECounsel will be juggling multiple English and foreign-language projects at once. Since they cannot own all the real estate in an expensive city like DC, or even a substantial fraction of it, and they need big spaces for all those warm bodies, they are forced to constantly be looking for short-term commercial leases -- maybe even month-to-month leases (because they often don't know the duration of a project).
So while they might be headquartered in big cities like NYC and DC and have their main offices there, they are looking for nearby, much-cheaper venues to call doc review projects.
Unfortunately most of "us" who are on this board are not lawyers who live in smaller cities like Richmond and Wilmington. We tend to congregate in big cities like NYC and DC. And we can't suddenly take off and find short-term housing in Richmond.
Since there are qualified lawyers in Richmond who aren't working in this economy, this is ideal for HIRECounsel.... but not ideal for most of us.
So this trend might be impacting things even more than Indian outsourcing these days... probably much more.
When that poster wrote (crickets chirping) about the doc review projects in NYC, meaning there are none to speak of, the probable reason is that they are going to smaller less-expensive nearby cities like Hartford, CT.
As they mentioned it's an "online project" which obviously means docs are on a server somewhere and location of the review is inconsequential. This would be obvious, because reviews have been "online" in that sense for a while, but the fact that they take pains to point it out in their ad indicates to me that they are conscious of the fact that they are deliberately using Richmond as a less-costly venue for the project, and the project is really being supervised out of DC.
BTW, a few weeks back there was a flame war on this blog regarding whether there was serious discussion of bank nationalization in this country. One poster maintained it was a serious option being considered, and another argued in a rather surly and bellicose way that the first dude had in effect lost his marbles and he didn't know what he was talking about.
I knew the poster arguing that nationalization was a real prospect was 100% right (anyone keeping abreast of international financial newsletters and the news would have known that)... I just think it's funny how some people can be so close-minded and obstinate in their ignorance, and shut out opinions that they don't agree with or are (for some reason) afraid of.
Instead of shutting off our minds and locking ourselves into Rush Limbaugh / Sarah Palin mode, people need to take a good stiff dose of REALITY.
12:42 give it a rest already. Coming here weeks later to bolster your stupid nationalization crap is flaming. JDU wants you.
11:48 100 per hour often isn't nearly enough for DiscoverReady. On some projects they have required at least 1600 docs per day with only a 40 hour week. Even that's not really enough for them in a sense because they would prefer outsourcing everything to India. I don't think they even have so much work here anymore. I have heard that they lost work here late last year and had mass lay-offs. Maybe they shifted in to India, but I have no idea if that's what happened.
116
You do realize that 1242, the person to whom you are responding, is a separate poster from me, the orginal poster about nationalization from several weeks ago?
I expect you to claim that we are the same poster (it's what paranoid people like you do). But, we are separate, and not surprisingly, there are others like me who are interested in understanding the general environment in which we find our career prospects.
Also, please stop acting like a mini-dictator by telling everyone what they should or should not talk about here.
1242
After mentioning the nationalization issue from several weeks ago and receiving the reaction that I received, I decided to not discuss the general recsession and job environment as some here do not want to place our situation into context. They want to pretend that whatever they make up is indeed the reality. Thanks for the shout out.
I continue to follow these issues. One of the reasons why this recession may last until 2011 is that our banking system is basically failed- this is why law firms are finding it hard to finance doc reviews. I think I just read that at another blog on the practice of law. Some partner at a midsized firm saying they had a problem raising the money to finance their suit.
As for your other posts about doc reviews going to smaller markets- I am not convinced of that yet. I definitely think its a factor. The reality is that doc reviews can be done anywhere in the U.S. I don't like it. But, I don't think there is any practical reasons to deny the reality.
On the other hand, Hirecounsel and other agencies were staffing projects in other cities even in the good times in New York. Therefore, I am not sure your proof demonstrates a real change from the past.
1:46 ROFL. JDU wants you back.
Like anyone but you would be interested in those idiotic nationalization posts from weeks ago that just gave most here a headache.
1:54 shouting out to yourself is tres pathetic.
Anything happening with LAAP?
The LAAP idea seems to have been abandoned. No news on anything happening since it was first discussed.
I predicted a few of you would say what you are saying. Your paranoid delusions are predictable.
I wonder if the right strategy to reverse the Indian outsourcing trend is to contact key people at law schools around the country and emphasize that this is killing jobs for THEIR graduates. If we are able to get enough of these law school decisionmakers (there are literally hundreds and hundreds) to be more aware of this issue and join us in opposing outsourcing, then our argument will have a lot more clout and will be heard.
As for LAAP, I was the guy who came up with the name, but like I said, the problem remains the same- people want to talk, but not many, if any, want to act. Organizations like that require a lot of work. Maybe someone is acting to build it now, and, therefore, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. but, still the track record of contract lawyers for doing these sorts of things is not good.
2:11 What do you think about the posse list's latest explanation - that it's not the outsourcing that's really causing the disappearance of work and that it's really the onshoring to less expensive areas that's the problem?
My opinion of LAAP: great, well-written website blurb, but shitty name for the organization.
Yeah, LAAP was a lot better than a few of the other suggested names, but still it's a dead-end phrase that basically means nothing and doesn't inspire anyone.
I mean, "Law As A Profession"???? Get real, that's not even what we're talking about.
We're talking about an aggressive bid to save TEMP law jobs... because those are the only options open to many law school graduates, at least in this economy.
That's hardly "law as a profession". When people see the name, and then understand what the aims of the group are, they'll think it's (1) very ironic; and (2) completely unrelated, as in the name doesn't fit the goals of the group at all.
Plus, the name is a phrase that kind of lands with a "dud" on the ears: "Law As A Profession". As opposed to what? Law as a frying-pan? Law as a goat?
So while I give mad props to the guy who started the blog and wrote the introductory blurb, I can't give him even half a prop for coming up with that silly, mundane and meaningless name!
LAAP? Will people start calling us the "LAAP-dogs"???
2:13 I also was hoping that the silence may mean somebody is working on it. Maybe everyone interested is just silently hoping that someone else is doing something.
2:16 do you have a better suggestion?
I think LAAP was suggested due to the concern that bar associations are dismantling the profession by saying that outsourcing to foreign non-attorneys is ok. By fighting outsourcing we would be saying that because law is a profession and only U.S. admitted attorneys should be practicing it.
2:15
I agree with you. It's actually both, but lately, the latter (onshoring to less-expensive cities) seems to be much more pronounced and growing very fast.
And this is something we really can't complain about because the attorneys really ARE American-trained and American-barred.
If you notice, in a lot of markets, the agencies are reserving the Japanese, French, Portuguese, Swedish, Greek, Italian, Russian, etc. jobs for the big international cities like NYC and DC, and shifting their English jobs to Oklahoma City, Baton Rouge, Richmond, Pittsburgh, Des Moines, and Bakersfield.
Not much we can really do about that.
2:16 do you have a better suggestion?
I think LAAP was suggested due to the concern that bar associations are dismantling the profession by saying that outsourcing to foreign non-attorneys is ok. By fighting outsourcing we would be saying that because law is a profession only U.S. admitted attorneys should be practicing it.
2:26
But it's very ironic that the jobs we're talking about saving are NOT characteristically jobs that are associated with the legal profession, or any profession for that matter, but just jobs for which a law degree (and maybe a law license) have been deemed necessary.
They may pay well and still allow their employees to feel they are working as "attorneys", but they are NOT really professional jobs, no matter how hard you try to stretch the definition.
I would suggest something more generic, but more to-the-point, like American Association of Contract Attorneys (AACA).
2:26 do you think the English jobs will come back from those other U.S. cities when the economy improves?
216
You ask as opposed to what?
As oppposed to what it is becoming. Which is not a profession, but a fungible service like customer service or telemarketing. That anyone can do what a lawyer can do anywhere. There i no need for expertise, training, licensing or ethical standards. There is no need for quality control that keeps number of law schools down so that people who lack intellectual ability are not diluting the profession.
If you want a comparision, take a look at how doctors interact with one another. They still act like a profession. There is a lot of status involved with doctors. But, whether a doctor is a solo generalist or a specialist in a major research facility, they still have that sense of it being a profession.
On the other hand, lawyers as a profession right now are under assault. Outsourcing is only one arm of that problem. The way in which the ethical rules favor large law firms with a lot of money is another. There are still more. One of the reasons why I don't think anything will happen with LAAP is that people are short sighted. We only see our circumstances. but the big picture is one of getting rid of lawyers.
I came up with the name because it's the big picture. At the end of the day, however, I am trying to now focus on my long term big picture.
So, I can't blame others (as I said at the time) for not wanting to get involved when i also am trying to move on. I just was being hopeful someone would do something.
2:29
I think they will drift back, to some extent, but not totally. But I think this trend is here to stay for at least the next 2-3 years.
229
What are legal jobs, and what are their general characteristics? I am curious bout the background of some of the posters here. Doc reviews are lower tier legal work, but they are legal work. Your argument is like saying due diligence (essentially another form of doc review, but for corporate transactions) is not real legal work. It's just not true. Now, maybe wha tyou mean is this is not what you thought legal work is like when you were in law school? Or something else? I don't know. I am asking you to explain what you mean.
Not true 2:29. Check out the Deloitte website. On its doc review page it clearly states that doc review is practicing law. None of the firms or even the outsourcers doing doc review have any doubt that it is practicing law. The LSP website, which has a statement saying outsourcing doc review isn't worth it also shows no doubt that doc review is practicing law. No real question about it at all.
Inevitably the agencies that don't want to get involved in outsourcing (for a number of reasons -- they may not want to spend money on travel budgets to train supervisors in India, they may not want the trouble of dealing with contractors and employees long-distance), will turn against the LPOs and lobby AGAINST outsourcing of legal work, and will be among our biggest allies, because their incomes are threatened.
Among the agency ranks, there will be some steadfast resisters who don't want to outsource, and they will eventually become a driving force in pressuring decisionmakers to stifle or ban outsourcing.
I think part of the problem is a) what we learn in law school about practicing law and b) that we do it now as a matter of rote that we don't think about the steps involved. With a) in law school we are taught to think of law as testing the limits so we don't realize a lot of law is mundane cases and transactions Even a transactional lawyer will only see a few types of transaction in his or her practice. Also over time as you do this enough, it seems like its not really practice because you don't have to think about it. But would that be true of a non lawyer? Sure they could memorize a concept, but would they have the context to know to ask a question where some rule they memorized did not apply with regard to say privilege?
why wouldn't agencies want to outsource?
This is from the LSP website:
Outsourcing Your Legal Work? Think Again
Why Hiring an Offshore Legal Firm May Cost You More in the Long Run
In an increasingly competitive global marketplace, many US companies are looking overseas for cheaper workforces to cut costs and increase their company's bottom line. Law firms are no different. The latest trend is for US law firms to "outsource" their legal work to counter-act rising lawyer costs in the US.
Traditionally, legal outsourcing is a viable option for US firms for several reasons. With the advent of the internet and faster communications networks, projects can be assembled in different time zones and different countries, thus cutting a project's turn-around time and increasing productivity and revenues. Also, some cultures don't mind working around the clock and through the weekend, which also increases productivity. However, the most compelling reason for legal outsourcing is the significant savings a firm can achieve by hiring non-US lawyers to perform the work they would normally pay American lawyers to perform.
Though these reasons may seem valid and attractive, there is a downside to hiring offshore firms to cut legal costs for your company. In fact, outsourcing your legal work can be more costly in the long run than it would be to hire fully licensed and accredited US attorneys.
It's Usually More Work For You to Find a Reputable Offshore Legal Firm
Currently, no regulations or accreditation programs exist to ensure that a foreign law firm is reputable, reliable and ethical. The responsibility is on you to fully research a company to determine if that company uses lawyers that are trained in and knowledgeable on US law. Also, legal training differs from country to country and the American Bar Association does not always consider another country's legal education to be comparable to US training.
There are other concerns that your company should consider before hiring a foreign law firm.
Does this company have secure financial backing? And from what sources?
Can I be assured that there is no conflict of interest for this company in regards to their other clients?
Where do their lawyers come from and what kind of licensing do they have?
Do the foreign firm's ethics and rules regarding confidentiality and security comply with those of US law firms?
Taking the time to ensure that the foreign company that you are hiring is safe may require more work from your firm than simply using a US attorney in the first place.
The ABA Feels that US Law Firms Should Pass the Savings onto their Clients
The American Bar Association has expressed a formal opinion on the matter of the savings that hiring a non-US law firm can bring. The ABA feels that it is improper to levy a surcharge on fees that the non-US firm is charging the hiring US firm, and that the US firm would then charge the client. So, in essence, your firm has to charge your client exactly what the outsourced legal fees are and nothing more. So, the savings that you have achieved for your firm are effectively zeroed out as you have passed the savings onto your client.
However, as there is no law stating that your firm must disclose that you are using an offshore firm for legal services, this issue falls under the ethical code by which your firm operates and how you choose to deal with billing your clients. But if the client finds out through another method that you have sub-contracted out their casework, that may not reflect kindly on your firm's reputation.
If Something Goes Wrong, Your Firm is Ultimately Responsible
If the foreign legal service you have contracted does indeed fail you, and you have not disclosed your use of said service, your credibility in the eyes of your client is severely tarnished and that can be much more valuable to your firm's financial well-being than any savings you may have gained from legal outsourcing.
Ultimately, however, your firm is responsible for all legal work for a client, whether you have outsourced that work or not. Using a foreign law firm can be a gamble. The country where that firm is located may have a plethora of issues to consider before contracting services.
Is the country politically stable?
Does it have the proper infrastructure to conduct business, such as a reliable electricity grid or Internet service?
Does the culture respect US law and businesses (which is becoming more and more of an issue)?
To conclude, there are many questions and concerns that your firm must consider before contracting legal services from an overseas source. It may just seem as though your firm is saving money and time, when in fact, you are losing both.
© 2005 - 2009 Legal Support Personnel, All Rights Reserved. Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | EEO
2:32 (the first one) wrote:
"If you want a comparision, take a look at how doctors interact with one another. They still act like a profession. There is a lot of status involved with doctors. But, whether a doctor is a solo generalist or a specialist in a major research facility, they still have that sense of it being a profession."
Not necessarily true. In truth the medical profession is threatened by deprofessionalization almost as much as the legal profession, in some ways even more.
HMOs have sapped professional standards from much of the medical profession. Many doctors are miserable (including my brother and sister). Younger docs today are becoming puppets of their HMO masters, literally dancing as their strings are pulled and their professional judgment is overrided by pink-collar bureaucrats and bean-counters sitting in front of computers trying to deny reimbursement and treatment, and override doctors' decisions even on the most mundane issues.
Unlike some on here I actually still do work for a law firm (I'm interested in temping as a way to change cities so I can move to DC)... At my office yesterday a client called and said her HMO is denying a CT scan (requested by a physician) for a new lump on her breast, because she had breast implants 9 years ago, and they're calling the claim "cosmetic related".
So a woman can't have breast implants and also a potential breast cancer?? Is the HMO really willing to risk this woman's health and life, and miss diagnosing a cancer, by refusing to pay for one CT scan?
Everything in this country has become so monetized -- doctors, lawyers, and laypeople have ALL been turned into pawns by Corporate America.
http://www.legalsupportpersonnel.com/legal-industry-insight/outsourcing-legal-work/
250
You are right that I overstated my case in the sense that other professions are facing similar pressures. I was making a generalized point about the need for a profession rather than ignoring that there are pressures on other professions too.
It's true HMOs will try to deprofessionalize doctors, but doctors as a group are resistant to that deprofessionalization because they realize a) it affects the product of their services and b) it harms them as doctors seeking a livelihood.
Americans are also against this deprofessionalization because they see how it harms them.
I do not see a similar appreciation of these issues amongst lawyers.
So- why is Legal Support Personnel fighting outsourcing? What's motivating them? That maybe useful for us to know so that we can use similar reasoning.
2:42
Outsourcing is a trend, but it's not a black-or-white, all-or-nothing thing. Many agencies want to outsource, and some, like the LPOs, were set up exclusively to outsource work to India.
But there are a lot of temp agencies that are "entrenched" for various reasons in their respective legal communities in big US cities, and they may have very good economic reasons not to spend money on building up an outsourcing division.
They may have reliable pipelines of work from multiple big firms, and may have built up very good reputations. Getting into outsourcing requires an initial investment, i.e., a diversion of company resources into establishing relationships with Indian contractors (many of whom are not trustworthy), sending people overseas to train supervisors and lawyers, dealing with the time difference, international transaction costs, currency exchange fluctuations, etc., all of which, taken together, might not be deemed economically worthwhile.
Each agency is different. Some will have a huge bias in favor of outsourcing, some may have an equal bias against it.
258
Thank you for that post. I had not considered the individual interests of temporary agencies.
As to the onsourcing issue, are there no advantages to keeping a project in NYC, DC, etc, a opposed to sending it to a smaller locale?
No more lists of law firms and agencies to "avoid"???
I haven't seen one here in a while.
359
Logically speaking, why would there be such a list when people are discussing changed circumstances?
Is your point to say that the choice is either to have accepted the crappy condition of before or to accept the crappy condition now? Weird argument.
This blog is called sweatshop edition so I was hoping to get more info on which sweatshops to avoid.
I also like being told which projects I should pass up. You know, the ones where you don't get dinner and a limo home.
If anyone has such information please post.
Have you and your family been severely affected by the economic crisis? Do you feel you have been betrayed by "the system" and are you having problems finding employment? Does it seem to you that greed driven people from all ends in your community are working against you and deprive you of fair opportunity? Or is it even probable that you may have no viable career prospects ever again even when things get better again?
If any of this applies to you, then it is time to go back to the roots and accomplish the feats that made this country so great. The best opportunity in life you've ever had is waiting for you right here to grab it. A real change begins with a real leader like you. And America needs a new generation of great leaders now more than ever.
Do what is right for your country and don't let your abilities go to waste. Let your potential shine and help us rebuild the United States of America.
For more info, go to www.goarmy.com
433
You were clear with your first post about the blogger. Your rebuttal to his complaining is: "Aspire to nothing. Want nothing. Just be glad with what you can get. And- now that you don't have it. See- I told you should have been happy with whatever you can get. "
Or at least, that seems to be the case. If not, then I admit my mistake.
I don't agree with your mindset as I described.
All the current crisis demonstrates is that we should have gotten more while the times were good because once the times are bad you will need the additional saved up reserves.
We could have made 25/hr during the good times, and I don't see how that would have changed the fact we are in a near depression. Therefore, making 25/hr would have only resulted in less savings. Not a better situation for us now.
4:37
Where can you find pleasure
Search the world for treasure
Learn science technology
Where can you begin to make your dreams all come true
On the land or on the sea
Where can you learn to fly
Play in sports and skin dive
Study oceanography
Sign up for the big band
Or sit in the grandstand
When your team and others meet
In the navy
Yes, you can sail the seven seas
In the navy
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the navy
Come on now, people, make a stand
In the navy, in the navy
Can't you see we need a hand
In the navy
Come on, protect the mother land
In the navy
Come on and join your fellow man
In the navy
Come on people, and make a stand
In the navy, in the navy, in the navy (in the navy)
They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit
If you like adventure
Don't you wait to enter
The recruiting office fast
Don't you hesitate
There is no need to wait
They're signing up new seamen fast
Maybe you are too young
To join up today
But don't you worry 'bout a thing
For I'm sure there will be
Always a good navy
Protecting the land and sea
In the navy
Yes, you can sail the seven seas
In the navy
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the navy
Come on be bold and make a stand
In the navy, in the navy
Can't you see we need a hand
In the navy
Come on, protect the motherland
In the navy
Come on and join your fellow man
In the navy
Come on be bold and make a stand
In the navy, in the navy, in the navy (in the navy)
They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit
Who me?
They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit
But, but, but, I'm afraid of water.
Hey, hey look
Man, I get seasick even watchin' it on TV!
They want you, they want you in the navy
Oh my goodness.
What am I gonna do in a submarine?
They want you, they want you in the navy
In the navy
Yes, you can sail the seven seas
In the navy
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the navy
Come on be bold and make a stand
In the navy, in the navy
Can't you see we need a hand
In the navy
Come protect the motherland
In the navy
Come on and join your fellow man
In the navy
Come on be bold and make a stand
Big City Life,
Me try fi get by,
Pressure nah ease up no matter how hard me try.
Big City Life,
Here my heart have no base,
And right now Babylon de pon me case.
People in a show,
All lined in a row.
We just push on by,
Its funny,
How hard we try.
Take a moment to relax.
Before you do anything rash.
Don't you wanna know me?,
Be a friend of mine.
I'll share some wisdom with you.
Don't you ever get lonely,
From time to time
Don't let the system get you down
[Chorus:]
Soon our work is done,
All of us one by one.
Still we live our lives,
As if all this stuff survives.
I take a moment to relax,
Before I do anything rash.
[Bridge:]
The Linguist across the seas and the oceans,
A permanent Itinerant is what I;ve chosen.
I find myself in Big City prison, arisen from the vision of man kind.
Designed, to keep me discreetly neatly in the corner,
you'll find me with the flora and the fauna and the hardship.
Back a yard is where my heart is still I find it hard to depart this Big City Life.
--Mattafix
If tomorrow all the things were gone,
I’d worked for all my life.
And I had to start again,
with just my children and my wife.
I’d thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘ Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘ Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.
From the lakes of Minnesota,
to the hills of Tennessee.
Across the plains of Texas,
From sea to shining sea.
From Detroit down to Houston,
and New York to L.A.
Well there's pride in every American heart,
and its time we stand and say.
That I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘ Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.
And I’m proud to be and American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘ Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.
Thou art the ruler of the minds of all people,
dispenser of India's destiny.
The name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sind, Gujarat and Maratha,
of the Dravid and Orissa and Bengal;
It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
mingles in the music of the Yamuna and Ganga
and is chanted by the waves of the Indian Sea.
They pray for thy blessings and sing thy praise.
The salvation of all people is in thy hand,
thou dispenser of India's destiny.
Victory, victory, victory to thee.
I bow to thee, Mother,
richly-watered, richly-fruited,
cool with the winds of the south,
dark with the crops of the harvests,
The Mother!
Her nights rejoicing in the glory of the moonlight,
her lands clothed beautifully with her trees in flowering bloom,
Sweet of laughter, sweet of speech,
The Mother, giver of boons, giver of bliss.
Jub Zero Diya Mere Bharat Ne, bhaarat ne mere bhaarat ne
duniya ko tab ginati Aayi.
taaron ki bhasha bharat ne
duniya ko pahale sikhalaayi.
Detaa na dashamalav(decimal) bhaarat to,
yu chaand pe jaana mushkil tha.
Dharati Aur chaand ki duurii ka,
Andaaz lagaanaa mushkil tha.
Sabhyataa jahaa.n pahale aayi.
Pahale janamii hai jahaan pe kalaa.
Apan bhaarat jo bhaarat hai,
jisake piichhe sansaar chala.
sansaar chala aur aage badha.
Jo aage bafhaa, badhta hi gayaa .
bhagavaan kare ye aur badhe,
badtaa hii rahe aur phuule-phale.
Beautiful post! As soon as my unemployment BENEFITS run out, I am going to spend my time at the airport. I'll shave my head and walk up to people, telling them I am a monk, and selling them a copy of "The journey to self discovery." for $5.
Or I could become a Moonie. I heard the layoffs got so bad an associate like Luong Dong has become a Moonie.
"Many agencies want to outsource, and some, like the LPOs, were set up exclusively to outsource work to India. "
Rahul, put down the curry bowl! We all know you used car salesmen are here to shill for your cut rate, third rate, low quality "solution".
Most agencies would rather hire Americans for much higher rates than resort to "shitsourcing" for low quality, cheapskate, poor quality work.
It's the gutter dwelling clients that want to cut costs by sending work to the third world. They have no concept of how they are damaging themselves. They think because they can "shitsource" IT that they can do it for legal work. It's just folly, plain and simple.
These same execs are giving themselves massive bonuses and begging Uncle Sam for bailouts.
Great business models, eh?
9:16
You can get a job as an attorney defending the Moonification Church!
(rhythmic head movement)
Apan bhaarat jo bhaarat hai,
jisake piichhe sansaar chala.
sansaar chala aur aage badha.
Jo aage bafhaa, badhta hi gayaa .
bhagavaan kare ye aur badhe,
badtaa hii rahe aur phuule-phale.
By an apparent, narrative dramatic irony, a slutty temp skanks toward Luong Dong at the airport. Luong's lidded, Moonie eyes clutch a rose and say "$5 toward enlightenment."
Luong Hums:
Apan bhaarat jo bhaarat hai,
jisake piichhe sansaar chala.
sansaar chala aur aage badha.
Jo aage bafhaa, badhta hi gayaa .
bhagavaan kare ye aur badhe,
badtaa hii rahe aur phuule-phale.
About that Posse List story on onshoring, a Houston commenter says that there are new doc review facilities that have been built there, but they are pretty much empty shells.
http://tinyurl.com/dzy9x3
Posselist seems more interested in having stories to publish instead of getting them right. It definitely seems like there's doc review in Philly but not as much or as high rates as they are used to. Houston may have just a little work and brand new empty facilities. Is doc review business really booming anywhere here or is it depressed nationwide? Who cares if new buildings are built - what matters is where the projects are.
Posselist seems more interested in having stories to publish that people will talk about instead of getting them right.
Well, they are trying, but nobody knows what's going on, except for perhaps the biglaw partners.
1:20
It's everywhere. DC is also in a meltdown. It's not only legal, it's everything (except gov/military). The credit markets are still frozen.
My guess is things may pick up Weds. when the details of the stress test are given. Nothing is going to happen until then.
Thanks for the response 2:59. Sounds about right to me.
259 is right. I wish people here would read other sources. The Big Law firms are similarly frozen, but are unwilling to admit it due to their obsession over status. Remember, these are the same people who in the middle of a recession will claim they laid people off due to performance rather than economic reasons. Do you really think they are going to admit that they are too cash strapped to do business as usual?
PS- I don't think the stress tests are going to produce a thaw. If the economists are right, and if Soros is right (amongst others) several banks are insolvent (including Citibank and Bank of America). They may go into receivership (or nationalization) as per the GOP and Dems floating the trial ballons. But, who knows- Geithner is an idealogue opposed to nationalization so it may be a long time before the markets are unfrozen, and money starts flowing in for big law. So long as that is the case business maybe slow outside of government contracts.
Most of the commenters here apparently are in the New York City area. The D.C. document review market indeed is dead right now.
3:59 how long has it been like that in DC? In NYC, it's like someone pulled the plug out last Nov. Almost everyone here is on ue.
This is 3:59.
In D.C., the plug was pulled in about October. Whether it's just the economy, or also outsourcing and/or new technology, no one knows.
Thanks 4:44. Maybe we'll just have to wait until the credit crunch ends before we really know.
You're welcome.
And now the latest threat is onsourcing. I wonder if that is going to hurt NYC and DC?
It can't help, but sounds like at least in Houston not much really is going on. New buildings but so far not much inside. I guess it just remains to be seen whether they are gearing up for real projects or made a bad bet.
yeah- remember these are the same agencies that built similar centers in NYC assuming they would last. some as recently as a year or so ago.
So why keep the document reviews in NYC or DC, if they can be done more cheaply elsewhere?
Maybe for the same reasons they were here to begin with. There is also a history of business relations between individuals in the agencies and the firms. Possibly the NYC and DC law firms would prefer being closer to where the work is done regardless of the internet. Maybe not. It's like 'round and 'round this goes and where it stops, nobody knows.
With the interaction between the associates from the firm and the document reviewers, isn't it more efficient if the document review is done where the firm is?
I would think that's one of the main reasons that NYC and D.C. have traditionally had so much of the work. There are reasons why firms and clients would want to have in person meetings and visits.
Reasons for sticking with NYC and DC include having meetings with associates and doc reviewers, meetings where associates can have clients in one conference room and doc reviewers in another so that there can be a lot of candid communication not on any phone (that might be monitored) or online (leaving a trail).
3:27
Exactly. If clients found out they were close to insolvency, they'd flee to another firm. Also, the associates and lower level partners would flee like rats from a sinking ship.
So everything is fine at the big firms and buisness has never been better. They're laying off 1/3 of the staff due to "performance issues."
1:20 PM
"Is doc review business really booming anywhere here or is it depressed nationwide? Who cares if new buildings are built - what matters is where the projects are."
It's not so much booming in one particular city, but dispersing all over the country, from the traditional big metros (NYC, DC, LA) to smaller cities and towns nationwide.
Don't believe me? Look at this...
CONTRACT DOCUMENT REVIEW
DiCenzo Personnel Specialists - Wheeling, WV
Document review project for Wheeling, WV law firm for barred and unbarred attorneys. $21 per hour + $.50 commuter subsidy. CONTACT: Joan Huber, DiCenzo...
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Document Review Attorney
Special Counsel - Pittsburgh, PA
Classification: Contract Purpose: Document review attorneys needed for project in the downtown area. Successful candidates will have prior docuemnt review...
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Attorney
GCC Consulting - Chicago, IL +1 location
wealth manager seeks Attorney having 4+ years of... agreements, prime brokerage documents, and OTC confirmations as needed. Review and negotiate corporate...
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Japanese Speaking Attorneys for Document Review - Michigan
Kelly Law Registry - Detroit, MI
seeking attorneys fluent in Japanese for a short-term document review project in Michigan. Interested... experience in document review is also preferred...
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Document Review Attorney – Reasonable Overtime Hours!
HIRECounsel - Richmond, VA
Document Review Attorney – Reasonable Overtime Hours! We are continuing to seek admitted attorney... Documents will be reviewed for relevance, attorney..
Attorney
Covansys ( a CSC Company) - Farmington Hills, MI
NYSE: CSC) a $17 billion company, is seeking an attorney for its Farmington Hills, Michigan office with at... and assist with document control and reporting...
From Dice - 23 days ago
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Temp Attorney - Manage Document Review
HIRECounsel - Kansas City, MO
Manage Document Review HIRECounsel is seeking an Attorney with solid litigation and document review... Electronic document review and QC documents...
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Coders/Document Review
HIRECounsel - Philadelphia, PA
--Description-- We are seeking experienced coders/document reviewers for upcoming projects in Center City... staff, all of whom are attorneys and paralegals...
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Attorney (English & Japanese Doc Review) -- Major Firm
Strategic Legal Solutions - Chicago, IL
Attorney (English & Japanese Doc Review) -- Major... Major Firm seeks ten plus attorneys for document review project including English and Japanese documents...
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DOCUMENT REVIEW & CODING
Interview Staffing - Kansas City, MO
Legal Are you a paralegal or attorney with document review and/or coding experience who is currently unemployed and looking for a great project? This could be...
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Spanish-English Document Review Attorneys
Special Counsel, Inc. - Philadelphia, PA
Spanish-English Document Review Attorneys Special Counsel is seeking bilingual attorneys fluent in... electronic document review project. Attorneys must... $45 an hour
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DOCUMENT REVIEW ATTORNEYS NEEDED
Hudson - Atlanta, GA
of the Georgia Bar 2. Previous electronic document review experience 3. Great people skills 4. Ability to... of your previous document review experience to Tracey...
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ATTORNEY
State of Arkansas - North Little Rock, AR
CLASS TITLE: ATTORNEY CLASS CODE: R036 LAST REVISION DATE: CLASS SUMMARY The Attorney works under... ATTORNEY (CONT.) WORKING RELATIONSHIPS The Attorney... $39,369 - $42,500 a year
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Attorneys wanted for Document Review
Special Counsel - Chicago, IL
Attorneys wanted for Document Review Special Counsel... Attorneys for future document review projects in Chicago and the surrounding areas. Prior document review...
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Attorney (Corp)
Coventry Health Care - Downers Grove, IL
laws and regulations. Composes and reviews moderately complex legal documents, including court filings, contracts, and regulatory and compliance documents...
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Spanish Speaking Document Review Attorneys Needed!
Providus - Houston, TX
Speaking Document Review Attorneys Needed! About... speaking contract attorneys for an immediate document review. MUST have prior electronic review experience...
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------
What's that, you say? Doc review jobs for attorneys in Wheeling, WV? Downers Grove, IL? Little Rock, Arkansas???
And there are LOTS more like the above... and ALL of the above ads came out within the past MONTH.
NOW do you believe us???
Active doc review projects sprouting up in small cities all over the country, and it's virtually dead for English-language projects in NYC and DC.
That should tell everyone a little somethin' somethin'.
yeah,
But if you look up contract attorney or temp attorney on careerbuilder NYC or DC, you'll find more ads than you would for the rest of the nation.
I did a search in Houston on "Contract attorney" and "temporary attorney" and found one applicable result for a dutch fluent attonrney within the last month.
All you idle NYC temp attorneys out there on this group -- looks like if you lived in Kansas City, you'd be working.
yes but we'd be living in Kansas City. That's its own version of hell.
7:22
That's the main one I saw listed for Houston, too.
That obviously has to do with the oil industry. There are a lot of Dutch and Anglo-Dutch oil companies working all over the world, and some are actually heavily connected with Houston...
http://www.anglo-dutch.com/
Likewise with the Japanese projects you see being called for Detroit -- it has to do with the auto industry. Probably some very interesting cases.
Yes, you'll still find more ads for NYC and DC projects, but my point is that we seem to be in a phase where a lot of projects are migrating out all over the country, into venues where previously it was rare or completely unheard of to see a doc review project.
I mean, North Little Rock, Arkansas? Wheeling??
There is a TON of this going on, I've only posted the tip of the iceberg. If you do a little research you might be really, really surprised.
722
Once again, you can not use ads as a gauge of the market. The reality is that agencies place a lot of resume gathering ads up. The only real way to test what's happening is through the reporting being done by those people actually working in the markets in question. This tells us whether people are or are not finding real work. Since they are reporting that the doc review centers are operating in some cases at 10 percent- that's enough for me to believe these ads are just to gather resumes.
7:22 I agree. Going by agency ads doesn't give an accurate view because so many are phony. It's better to go to the blogs and talk to those who are there to see how much actual work there is.
Exactly 7:29, agency ads are no way to tell what's really going on.
7:29
Faulty reasoning.
"Seek truth from facts."
-Teng Xiaoping
You are not seeking truth from facts, you are starting out with your own preordained opinion and then interpreting the facts to support that opinion.
The truth is that (a) you're right, some ads will be for resume gathering; but (b) there is no logical reason to believe that a majority of ads are for resume gathering, or that observed trends in ads are illusory simply because we know *some* ads are for resume gathering.
It makes perfect sense to assume that at least 50% of all ads seen will not be for resume gathering, but instead represent real projects. To assume otherwise is to shove your personal bias into the way of the facts.
If even half of the ads we see are not for resume gathering but are about real projects, then if we see an overall trend (in a random selection of ads), then it must represent a valid, real trend, rather than something illusory.
And we do see a pronounced trend: the migration of many doc review projects to third-tier cities around the country.
Facts may be "funny things", as Reagan said, but summarily dismissing a set of pretty obvious facts is risky business.
It still seems to me that document review is much more efficient if conducted where the managing firm associates are located.
7:36 the problem with what you're saying is that you don't have the facts. 7:29 is saying that we don't know the facts from agency ads, we should look at what those who are really in those areas looking for work are saying. That is the right approach. Agency ads are cheap and meaningless.
The associates are now doing doc review in NYC, so need for temps at the moment. Temps are just for overflow, so when work slows down, temps aren't required.
Not to mention that many of the reviews in NYC require NY Barred attorneys. So once the economy upticks, then we will see more need for overflow temps.
I searched on career builder for temporary or contract attorney for Arkansas and found nothing.
Are you just trying to work people up?
Even if there was an ad, it might be for some military or government thing (kind of like City of New York). They know how to review docs outside of NYC and DC.
Trying to tell what's happening by counting agency ads is a total waste of time. Ever heard the expression, garbage in, garbage out?
Since things are so quiet out there maybe now would be a good time to strike?
What do you guys think? Should we finally do it?
919
Yes, people are too fearful to organize.
No, the bad times do not mean they should not have organized.
It's precisely these sorts of down turns that provide the reason why one should have organized in the good times. It's in the good times that you get all you can get so that you will have the resources to weather the bad times.
By your economic "logic," we should settle for 25 when we can 35 and 35 when we can push for 50. The only thing that settling for less gets you is less money when you need it and not a chance to get more money. In fact, the workers most protected right now in this down economy are those with unions.
There is an lpo convention on Feb 23. I stated on a prior post that we needed more than 5 people to protest at the convention. We barely got 5 people to vote on the name.
Yes- people are afraid. That is a different point from whether it's a good idea. Personally, I don't think a protest is a good idea.
10:08
The intellectual laziness and/or ineptitude displayed on this forum never cease to astound me.
I'm not talking specifically about you, but has it occurred to anyone that we really have no idea how many people are posting here on any given day/night?
Because of that, we don't really even know how many people are participating in a particular discussion, or anything like the "vote" held for a name. 5 people? Maybe it was only 2 people? Or maybe there were 50 different people chatting here that night. We really have no way of knowing this, and that is our first weakness among many many weaknesses.
Another, as I've mentioned before, is the sheer retardedness of having a forum where 95% of the participants post anonymously and we address each other with the time of the post. This is utterly imbecilic. And before people jump on my friggin' case about why I'm doing the same thing, I'm doing it because after suggesting some alternative, I was screamed at by about 14 people on here (or 60? Or 2?) that the group likes anonymity because they're afraid of being blacklisted by agencies.
Duuuuuuuhhhhh.... has anyone ever heard of using nicks?
And oh yeah, The Drooling Genius Award of the Night goes to the guy (or gurl? or moron?) who suggested we unionize and hold a strike.
Do you even friggin' realize that a job that is EMINENTLY amenable to Indian outsourcing will only be outsourced much more if temp attorneys unionize? Our jobs are among the most movable jobs in the world.
I am an attorney who graduated from a TIER ONE law school. I am currently WORKING at a good law firm, and am only interested in temping because I want to move to DC, and know I will have to temp while I look for a permanent gig.
I used to have a lot of comradeship and empathy for people from T-3 law schools. I used to regard ALL attorneys as my brothers and sisters. I used to respect the legal profession. Until I came to this blog, that is; then I started doubting all these attitudes of mine.
Maybe they really are accepting too many dim bulbs at law schools. Maybe there really are way too many law schools in this country, cranking out way too many lawyers.
The lack of strategic thinking and logic on this board has driven me to fits of laughter alternating with serious bouts of worry. I am very concerned that temp attorneys will never be able to help themselves, because they just don't have a grip on common sense, much less on reality.
If you're working at a big firm, why would you want to temp? Wouldn't it be simpler to find a job down there and then move?
The more I read some of these posts, the surer I am that people post here just to get a rise out of people.
Probably angry paralegals that max out at 80K and have to work 60-70 hours per week for it.
Sucks to be you.
10:46
I know that in the current market, my job search will not bear fruit overnight. It may take a good 3-5 months, because I'm looking for something pretty specific.
Forgot to mention this -- I want to move asap, and interviewing in DC will mean I'll have to ask for time off here -- which will mean people realize what's up.
1058
If you are in big law from a tier 1 law school, your argument makes no sense.
For all your claims that people are a lacking, it is you are lacking if you think leaving a big law job with your credentials to temp makes logical sense.
Given the economic circumstances, it does pass the rational test. I personally hate big law. I hate all of the pretenciousness. The status based approach to life that's not based on any real outcomes based performance (ie, look at Quinn (a crap law firm) having a PPP that's second in the country right now). So, when I say all of this, I say it with all the hate that anyone can muster for Big law- I still do not understand the rationale you are putting forward here. We are in a near depression, if not an out and out depression, and thus, your argument bares no link to reality.
if you were as smart as you think you are, then you arguments about your situation should follow the logic you claim others here should have. It does not. Thus, I question your credibility because I can't believe that any one is that stupid. Regardless of big law or tier 1 or not.
11:11
I am *NOT* leaving a big law job to temp!!
First off, I live in LA, not NYC. Second, I have personal reasons for wanting to move to DC asap. Third, I know how bad the economy is, and I know that my job search is gonna be pretty long, especially since I'm looking for something in a specific niche.
The temping thing is only a stopgap until I can get a permanent job, OK????
Sheesh....
Let me get this straight.
You're going to quit your job beacause your afraid you'll get fired for interviewing.
You're then going to move to DC and temp while you look for another job, even though you know that there aren't any temp jobs at DC at the moment.
You're doing this instead of keeping the job you have while you look for another job.
Whatever. I don't beleive you for a second.
"even though you know that there aren't any temp jobs at DC at the moment."
That's why I'm here and visiting other temp sites. To ferret out the truth.
"You're doing this instead of keeping the job you have while you look for another job."
I haven't done anything yet. I am here in fact-finding mode.
And yes, I am afraid I'll get fired for interviewing. In any normal economy, I wouldn't be, but this is far from a normal economy, as you can see from the title article of this thread. Mass layoffs may be just around the corner at any firm, and I just want to minimize the chances that I'll be blindsided.
1118
I am going to go with 1125 by saying I don't believe you.
Sorry, it's just not credible. Not because i believe everyone wants to do law or don't have reasons (even pressing ones) to move, but because a) you are here putting down others and b) gut check I don't beleive you.
If you were even saying," hey, fight for what you want" or "hey move on to better pastures" , then, sure- however crazy your logic (or lack there of) I may have beleived you, but how you present yourself- not really.
"If you were even saying," hey, fight for what you want" or "hey move on to better pastures" , then, sure- however crazy your logic (or lack there of) I may have beleived you, but how you present yourself- not really."
Believe it or not, I really wish everyone here success. I feel y'all's pain, and wouldn't wish bad on people I don't know.
I am just a bit sickened, sometimes, with some of the rank stupidity I see displayed from some of the posters on this blog.
Forgive me for not suffering stupidity lightly, I guess... It's probably just my fault and I'm a bad person for being intolerant of others opinions.
But again, I have to say... "Sheesh!"
PEACE OUT.
1142
Stupid is a factor no matter where you go. Why should here be any different? There is an old saying "Cream does not always rise to the top" or if you prefer "Shit floats" Both mean the same- that mediocrity is a part of life at all levels. Hell- look at the head of Bank of America trying to justify his decision which have probably left the company insolvent, and likely will lead to the company being put into receivership. Do you think he's stupid? I certainly do. His stupidity is greed. Others are based on fear. You can't judge every exec because there are large number of idiots amongst their ranks. the same is true here. So if you can't suffer fools, then you can't suffer working because that's a part of working life.
11:42
The replies to your post pretty much prove your point. The other problem with this board is if anyone has a differing opinion they are immediately labeled a troll.
1211
I think you need to work on your understanding of the word "proof." From your post, you seem to think it means "I agree with the poster's conclusion."
10:58
If you're in Biglaw, then you're not an associate. Maybe a staff attorney who does review and administrative work for associates at best. Biglaw associates will never have to resort to temping. That would taint their resume and make them less competitive for real jobs. Even in a bad economy associates may have to accept a lower paying job but at least someone will let them practice law and do substantive work. Doc review is not substantive work.
"Biglaw associates will never have to resort to temping." NOT SO!! I am on a project right now sitting next to a former biglaw associate who was laid off last month. They CAN and DO resort to temping. There are just no biglaw jobs to lateral to right now and no littlelaw jobs either (at least not that pay anything - if you want to work 80 hour weeks for $30K per year then maybe so).
I am not trying to be insulting but reading this blog and others has shown me that the people who go to law school in this country are really not too bright on the whole - at least it seems that way from the conclusions and assumptions people are making, not to mention the ignorant attitudes and spelling/grammar errors (I know it'as assholish to point that out but hey we are talking about the supposed cream of the crop people who can get into law school here). I went to a top 10 school and have realized that this shit profession is just NOT for me, never was and never will be. This crap doc review work could really be done by a secretary and it's certainly not worth the $35 I'm making to do it (though I am glad I have the job for now). I am making my exit from "law" and really don't much care what I do at this point as long as it's not boring document review where you sit on your ass all day and NOT in the profession of "law."
2:06
Duuhhhhh... First, you don't even put the temping on your resume.
What do you think a resume is, anyway? A log of everything a person ever does in his life, or a summary of experience and qualifications?
Second, can you wrap your head around the fact that there are some people out there who's qualifications are good enough that if they *do* include the temping on their resumes, it won't be enough to degrade their chances of getting another good job?
Is that concept too hard for you to grasp?
Sheesh.... Where do they get these people from, and what orifice are they pulling these weird ideas from?
Hey 2:06:
That's a good way to get in hot water with your State bar, intentionally failing to disclose the temp work.
That's a misrepresentation.
Try it out and let me know how long they suspend your law license for you dumb shit.
Not 2:06, 9:52 (See above)
There is no rule that says a job applicant has to disclose every job on a resume. That's really a juvenile interpretation you have there. I can see that you haven't reached the ranks of people who work and compete in the real professional world yet.
10:05
You obviously can't be a good lawyer if you don't understand what fraud/misrepresentation is. or maybe you're just unscrupulous.
Let say you submitted your resume for a Federal government job. You did temp work for 3 months.
You did not disclose the work on your resume.
Are you presenting the truth to the Federal government? No because it does not include what you actually did; in other words, you failed to disclose a material fact, that you did temp work. Why is it a material fact? Because it would affect the government's decision making process.
By the way, submitting a fraudulent resume to the Federal government is fraud. Would you like to have criminal liability?
And you don't get a pass because its not the Federal government, you still committed a misrepresentation and your State bar would be very interested in seeing you sanctioned.
In fact if I knew who you were and that you left out temp work, I would personally deliver a message to Bar Counsel, because I'm not getting sanctioned for burying my head in the sand.
Remember that as a lawyer you have a higher ethical duty than the regular Joe. The regular Joe can lie on his resume, you can't.
Get a clue...
I wonder who appointed 11:20AM as the Ethics Police - as another poster noted, a resume represents a summary of experience, skills and education
guess I better do some revisisons to include that teenage stint at KFC - and that dishwashing gig in the college cafeteria - I don't want the state Supreme court to start an investigation - by your logic, most adults have two choices: make their resume three pages; or keep it to one page with 4-point font
state disciplinary agencies are primarily concerned with two things: by far the biggest istheft/misappropriation of client funds; a distant second is the unauhtorized practice of law
I don't know what planet you're living on where disciplnary bodies have time to start scrutinizing resumes
a) It's not a misrepresentation or fraud to leave things off your resume.
b) That does not mean the guy claiming to variously be a big firm associate planning to leave his job for doc reviews, and then, not, is telling the truth. As I said, I have no proof, but I do have gut instinct.
There are fools here often on both sides of arguments.
12:16 is missing the point that: YOU ARE A LAWYER, not Joe Schmo.
You have an ethical duty to continue your good character. (Unless of course you lied on your bar application.) Joe the carpenter doesn't. If he lies about something, no one gives a shit.
Why do you think every time a lawyer gets charged with a crime, even a minor crime, the bar takes notices and commences with discipline proceedings?
If you lie and get caught by the Bar, they will punish you.
I think some people take what the agencies tell them to heart -- that they have to put all of their legal employment on their resume. I, myself, have been told that by a recruiter. What is a recruiter but a salesperson and what does the recruiter know about your ethical considerations/rules???? Can a recruiter really do a conflict-of-interest analysis?? This is the reason that inexperienced doc reviewers think they are required to list every job on their resume. Not so. As someone pointed out, you're not breaking any rule and it's not unethical not to list all of your legal employment. It's only an issue if you need to let your (law firm) employer know about a case you worked on which could pose a conflict of interest. The conflict of interest would have to do with the specific case, a specific client, specific information you may have, etc... Then I think you would have the duty to give some information about your past employment. But since the potential conflict of interest is not really employer-specific, you don't have to list all legal employers in a resume.
It's better to ignore these mental case phonies who delude themselves into thinking they can convince others that they are successful by posting their fantasies of oysters and good times for them. Let them tire themselves out while they meltdown before our eyes in their insane posts.
Sorry that was meant for a different thread
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