Today, Above the Law did an interesting piece on contract attorneys:
http://abovethelaw.com/2009/01/contract_attorneys_good_work_i.php
One of the ATL commenters became nostalgic about his time in the Paul Weiss gulag:
"When I was a contract attorney for Paul Weiss (for only a few weeks prior to starting my 'real' job as an associate) about 4 years ago, I had to work SEVEN DAYS A WEEK...for about 12-14 hours a day. Because I wasn't admitted to the bar yet (admission was pending), I was only paid about $21/hour. They put us in a basement storage room that had roaches and made us share the same bathroom as the homeless people use in the subway concourse.
I woke up one morning covered in welt-like hives and went to the doctor. He told me that I was so upset and depressed about my job, that my stress was manifesting itself through hives. Holy shit my life sucked. Thank God I got 'fired' a few weeks into it and was able to land an interview (which lead to my real job) within 2 days of my firing.
Worst. Experience. Ever."
I was a little taken aback by yesterday's law.com piece, where certain agency heads were claiming that they were "sharing the burden" with contract attorneys in these difficult times. Perhaps, so. When times were good, however, weren't these many of the same people were shoving bodies into these substandard gulags, profiting off of them, and then dumping them overboard the minute anyone showed the slightest level of discontent?
94 comments:
They're not sharing burdens, they are full of beans. They know they cannot staff projects with decent attorneys in NYC for less than $35. It's in their best interest to pay more to get the more professional reviewers. If they could pay $10 per hour to the attorneys and pocket $50 they would do it. Isn't that why India is so popular?
If they take the absolute dregs that they will get in the $30 and under range, they will have such horrific and unstable projects, full of complaints here and elsewhere. All agencies have lists of good people that they want to place on projects, who simply will stay home if it's under $35.
The McCarter project looks better every day!
I wrote that comment on ATL...and I'm a lady for the record.
Check this excellent job posting on craigslist nyc. Well-written by an obviously frustrated job seeker. I sympathize.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/lgl/991754136.html
that article was crap this so-called "journo" did not do her homework and challenge this bums. I guess its not just the legal profession that has gone into the toilet
Dick "head" Osman is a dick. He shoved so many of us into that cramped hellhole that the fire department had to come and order him to take out part of the wall.
That article was totally biased.
The lady who wrote it should take a course in basic journalistic ethics. While our blogs got a quick footnote, she quoted agencies and law firms who are trying to do everything in their power to reduce rates ad nauseum.
Sharing the burden my ass. Rates have been stuck at current levels since 2005!
If they are going to reduce rates and outsource jobs, maybe it is time for law schools to stop jacking up tuition.
I am the only one in the world that does not mind sitting around all day stress free clicking a mouse for $35 an hour?
Do you mind not knowing if you actually will be there at the end of the day, and thus able to pay your rent and student loans? That's the part of being a temp attorney that most people "mind"--having stable demands on income in the face of an unstable income.
To me it is part of the trade off. I make more money temping than I would not temping. Do I worry I could lose my job, sure, but I have been doing this for years, and maybe I am just lucky, but I have always been able to find a new gig. Although this fall got kind of rough. I have noticed that is alot more feast or famine these days than consistent. I used to get doc review gigs much more consistently in years past, so I take advantage of the hours when I can.
I love working temp. I just wish I could get on a stable project that would give me income for a couple months.
Nothing beats working long hours and getting rewarded with overtime. Most people are grateful and happy to have the work. There is a whiner in every bunch, but most of us are far more realistic than this board might indicate. Most just slap their headphones on and click click click.
Dickhead Osman is now going by Richard Osman. I guess that's part of "sharing the burden," but I'm not quite sure how.
11:19, you have the mentality of a slave. Love your ambition and drive! Keep clicking for massa, Kunta Kinte.
This is how bad things are. Project starting in Philly next Tuesday. Firm said they need 30 attorneys. They pick 30 resumes out of hundreds. They also require an interview. At the last minute they decide to interview 9 people, based on resumes, and take only 5 of them.
All of this for a 40 hour per week project, for four weeks.
I'm moving to Europe....
anybody starting a project with Update this week? supposedly one is starting...
There was a fake German project posted but that was all I heard about.
Update has no attorney projects starting, that is just a rumor. Sorry!
haha. nice job making stuff up 12:50
JOKE OF THE WEEK VIA CRAIGSLIST
now we are reduced to sick jokes and if true its sicker than I thought:
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/lgl/991754136.html
Associate Attorney (Midtown West)
Reply to: job-991754136@craigslist.org [?]
Date: 2009-01-13, 5:41PM EST
Fast-paced 20-attorney law firm looking for an eager associate to join our growing practice. We understand that you may be a newly-admitted attorney looking for their first job. We also know that the economy is harsh right now. However, we are willing to give you a chance. Here are the details of this spectacular opportunity:
* Your salary will be $30,000 per year. We understand that this may be on the low end(since you probably are six figures in debt), but we will be able to give you unlimited opportunities for experience and you'll be making six-figures soon enough. On the other hand, we will bill our clients $300 for every hour of your work; at least you will know your work is valued by us in several ways.
* There is no health insurance, but we have an on-site 2nd year medical student who will abide by the upmost professional standards take care of any illnesses or injuries that occur, both on-site and off-site.
* You will be expected to work 12 hour days, six (6) days of week. You will be afforded 1 week of vacation time, and three (3) sick days. Your vacation time is limited to the months of January and February, as we will need you to be in the office while the partners are taking their time off in the summer. The good news is that you will earn vacation and sick pay as soon as you start. The only holidays that the Firm observes are Christmas and Thanksgiving, but you must work a half-day, as we are a busy and important firm who adheres to our clients' needs.
* Your bonus, if earned (by billing 2100 hours per year), will consist of a one-year membership to a "food-of-the-mouth" club of your choice. In 2008, every associate took advantage of this valuable program and has benefited greatly for their hard work and dedication.
Please email resume, cover letter, salary history, law school and college transcripts to the address above. We will also need you to take a drug test. All resumes and credentials will be held in strictest confidence
* Compensation: $30,000 plus GREAT BENEFITS
* OK for recruiters to contact this job poster.
* Please, no phone calls about this job!
* Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
PostingID: 991754136
1:29 - please list all of the jobs starting for Update this week...put up or shut up!
2:35-i was asking a question and was given an obviously uninformed response. if someone doesn't know the answer maybe they should say..."i dont know"..or say nothing instead of making up something.
I have been out of work for 5 months. I will not be able to make rent next month. I want to kill myself.
2:45, if you did that, an agency would be calling you for a project two minutes later. That's just how doc review is.
Even if you are sued for your rent, you can buy plenty of time in court. Also, we had a bad dry spell a couple of years ago. Things got better.
It sure seems like a lot clickers out of work, though.
All the subprime work is in India.
Anybody apply and hear back yet on that 2-3 month document review gig posted on CL yesterday afternoon. It would be interesting to know which agency has work right now. Any information would be greatly appreciated!
I'm very surprised by the amount of optomism on this site. The Temp Attorney game is over with. We flooded the market at a time when open positions dropped and outsourcing exploded. Killself is an option, of coarse.
329
You can kill yourself first, and the rest of us will follow later. I promise.
don't kill yourself, that is a waste of time and will just leave a mess that someone else has to clean up, and I think we have all had enough of that type of thing.
if things are really that bad then maybe it is finally time for you to stand up and fight for something rather than lying down and dying for nothing.
Apparently you have nothing left to lose, so if not then when? Or are you too much for a coward to fight for yourself?
We do know that dry spells have come and gone before. That is a fact. We do not know that ALL of the work is gone to India and that projects will not pop up again within the next couple of months. I don't have a crystal ball and neither do you.
False optimism abounds. I have never seen so many delusional people in my life. As soon as Obama comes into office and starts all of those investigations, I am sure document review jobs will be bursting at the seams. Rolls eyes.
Best advice (and some veterans mention this from time to time) is to take advantage of the time off and learn a foreign language so you can get those gigs (in a couple of years), which are somewhat recession proof and pay a lot more and you're treated as a lawyer.
I don't mean an Asian language, that would take too long. Learn one that there are a lot of projects for, but not a common one like Spanish or French. I mean something like Dutch or Noweigen or Portuguese. There were a boatload of Scandinavian projects in 2008.
4:52, how long have you been seeing non-existent Obama references? You can come up with as many insults as you like, the fact is that dry spells have come and gone before.
Right 5:30, just another dry spell. After there is no work after inauguration day, what will be the next excuse for the lack of work? Valentine's day?
Wake up and smell the coffee. Agencies are collapsing, work is exploding in India, and firms are laying off. This is not your typical dry spell.
5:36, if you are so good at telling the future, why did you get into doc review?
Personally, I still want someone to kill themselves. I am bored. You are here to amuse me.
5:17 Hate to tell you this, but Scandanavian languages are hard. Dutch might be doable if you know German. By the way, Roseta stone advanced won't help you pass the on-line test. It's difficult unless it's a romance language.
The online testing is not difficult, especially Update's tests.
Scandinavian languages are mildly difficult.
Mandarin and Japanese are difficult for Westerners.
People serious about learning languages don't buy that overpriced piece of shit (Rosetta), we use books.
The only thing Rosetta is good for is learning basic tourist rant.
the dearth of good doc review jobs is here to stay. it sucks but now is the time to think about what you REALLY want to do with your life. even in the best of circumstances, doc review is just biding time.
9:28, We really don't know if it is here to stay or not. This is still early in the year. Things may improve somewhat over the next few months. Are you doing anything to get out of clicking?
"9:28" here. actually yeah, i've been away from clicking for 6 months and am glad about it. i'm making less $$ but doing something i like amd am working fewer hours. staring at a computer for 50+ hours/week was affecting my eyesight.
i met a lot of people at doc reviews who have potential to do better things with their time. yes, we all have bills to pay (loans, rent, etc...) but the reality is that we don't live forever and it's important to not toil away the hours doing mindless, unrewarding and unappreciated work. hopefully the market downturn will be an impetus for some of the people to do something they really want to do.
9:28, have you left law?
What the hell is going on with Hudson? They're not answering emails.
Did they fire Treadon Moore? (She sounded cute)
Not to start any fights, but do we actually know the work is in India? The only times I have heard anyone speak "officially" on it are the scum who run those places. (F You Perla) Of course those people would say business is booming, they have a vested intrest.
"9:28" again. yes, i have left the law. i never liked it and it was bad for my soul. i still read this blog on occasion (obviously) just to see the state of the doc review world. some of my friends are still chasing projects and i am telling them to find a better way to get a paycheck.
9:28,if you got a call for a great-sounding project, would you take it?
10:32 - Yes, we know it. If you search the archives, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence. Oracle, Apple, Microsoft all have thriving document review centers overseas. I remember seeing a youtube video on this site where a biglaw partner was bragging about how "cost effective" his new Indian operation was. This was all before the ABA came out with its infamous outsourcing decision.
10:33, I think most people have a gut feeling that the party is over and would be open to some other king of work that wasn't so degrading and mind-numbing. The problem is that shitlaw isn't so hot right now, and now really isn't a good time to try to transfer into another field in which you aren't qualified for.
The only way I'd do another project was if it was very short term (meaning less than a month). It would also have to pay well and fit in to my schedule. Furthermore, if I started such a project and there was any kind of b.s. involved, I'd quit in a NY minute. I did doc review for years and tolerated way too much. I just don't need to deal with the nonsense of it any more.
I know it's a cliche, but life's too short.
"9:28"
9:28, Congrats, it sounds like you made the right move for you.
11:16
Good for you.
You've found the right path. Temping sucks. Get the hell out as fast as possible. You're not going to review docs for the next 20 years are you?
Good luck finding anything where the pay is comparable. With my toilet degree, the only thing I am qualified for is to work at the local GAP or Starbucks.
2:45
What in the fuck have you been doing for 5 months?
Get off your ass and do some pro-bono, or take a
CLE in bankruptcy and open a solo practice.
Fuck, given five months of unemployment, I would have found a job or shifted a career, even in the great depression.
Don't wait around for some temp agency to call. Get off your ass and start doing something. There's plenty of work out there, just not doc. review.
I'm starting a project in a couple of days. Maybe the work is starting to come back. We'll see i guess.
11:56, you are a real asshole. The kid just threatened suicide and you are jumping up on your moralizing high horse.
everyone here is a faker
This is not some dry spell that will end sometime soon, its a market correction. They don't need 30 lawyers working in shifts for months at $40 per hour. It's over. Now comes the scary part, what do tens of thousands of highly educated lawyers do? Eat the ABA's president.
9:07, your professed lecture on economics aside, you have no way of predicting what will happen in the future - much like economists, have no way of doing that. They are wrong all the time. Trying to dress up your old declarations in different lingo to make it sound better does not change anything.
12:19, many people here are fakers, but it is not safe to treat talk of suicide lightly.
I have a degree in economics, but not law. Economics (and this blog- which is a true service to the human race) taught me that a degree in law was a REALLY poor investment. So my investment of time, effort, and money in my BA, as well as reading this blog, was a good one. The question I would like answered is simple: With all the 'strong' banks buying the weak banks, why is there not a lot of work generated for lawyers in doc review?
12:03, a lot of things are in flux now. Everyone who does doc review here would like lots of projects to pop up instantly, and many panic when that doesn't happen because they really need the work, but it may take some time for the dust to settle. It is just too soon to tell the real impact.
1203
You made the right decision. I recently talked to a friend the other day, and he was says the problem with my degree is thats the equivalent of having a bachelors in law. In other countries, that's what the JD would be the equivalent of having. Although we are required to take a test, there is no way for anyone to selectively know our competency and critical thinking beyond test taking.
On the other end, there is a glut so those two things, compentency and the glut, make the industry unlike others. It was an interesting perception of my degree.
It reminded me of being in law school, and meeting these German students for whom our degree really is something they obtain in their undergrad years.
As for your question-1237 gets it right. We are in the middle of the meltdown. Lawyers are cautious. Therefore, we do not yet know the outcome, if any, as a long lasting impact.
Thankfully, I am moving beyond this. I am re-evaluating my background. Thinking of ways to either a) move to another business or b) build on my background (because my friend told me to not throw the baby out with the bathwater).
1:07 - what "other countries" was your friend referring to? In most European countries, there is a bachelor's in law, as well as supplemental programs (e.g. LLM). In the US, though, a lawyer has a bachelor's degree (4 years) plus a JD (3 years), for a total of 7 years of post-secondary education. I don't see how that is equivalent to a 4-year bachelor's degree.
There is no valid reason why law shouldn't be offered on the undergrad level. Law is a complete joke. You waste your time in law school learning outdated property doctrines from the middle ages. Come on, now. The reason why law was "professionalized" was to make more money for the higher education monster. Some of these law professors earn over 100K a year for working 6 hours a week.
Meanwhile, Sallie Mae is just loving the fact that there is this dry spell with no work. She can pile on the forebearance fees.
120
We must obtain an undergrad degree before law school, but we could easily study law as an extended 5 year undergrad program.
His point was about the training. That it's taught like an undergraduate program, but requires us to pay additional costs that add nothing. We do not have a thesis or dissertation etc.
You have to take all of this in the context of everything else we were discussing.
ie, we were comparing the degree to other things. Unlike medical school, for example, we do not enter a market with artificially low numbers. Unlike MBAs, we do not have as much flexibility regarding what we can do with the degree.
His point is that it's a double hit- not only are we not given anything educationally to point out beyond grades, but we are also entering a market that's skewed.
I love how it works in Nigeria. When you are young, you pay a cow and a half to attend some rinky dink law school, you immigrate to the USA, plop down money for an LLM at some shitty TTT, and then jump on the doc review circuit with no debt. American born people are suckers.
which half of the cow?
Can this site have some moderation for racist comments?
Everytime we try to have a half way interesting conversation, some bigot chimes in to ruin it for the rest of us.
For the record, here's the reality:
a) You know nothing about the legal systems of other countries or their educational requirements- that much is clear.
b) The number of Nigerians in the US is vanishingly small. The number of Nigerians licensed to practice law is even smaller. Of that number, the numbers invovled in document reviews in NY are still smaller.
It's easy to single out some group as a scapegoat online where you think no one knows who you are.
I am guessing you are too much of a coward to say it in real life.
The discussion was about the American legal education system. Leave your bigotry behind.
This blog has gotten a lot of mainstream attention. Would it surprise anyone that Temp Agencies post on these boards, saying the same line we have all heard: "It's been slow lately but we're sure its going to pick up soon."
The staffing firms sell you to the lowest bidder, keep 50-70% of what they are billing you for, and fire you at any time. A lot of people are stuck putting up with it because the alternative is killself. But we're the masses are figuring it out, and we are very very pissed off.
Nigerians and othe foreigner don't go to a law school. Nope. They get undergrad degrees in law and do an LLM here and the NY Bar lets them join. Many states require a JD now, though, including CT and others.
Not everyone throws its lawyers to the wolves the way New York does. And not, it's not about race you knee jerk idiots, it's about economic opportunity. Only America is so stupid as to give all of our jobs to non-native english speakers with less training and competence. We should give US citizens first crack, then if needed, go out for the foreign trained. If this was the case, no Nigerians would ever work temp in NYC until they becamse US citizens, which would be a better, fairer system.
It is better to be a paralegal it seems.
Reply to: job-994144792@craigslist.org [?]
Date: 2009-01-15, 2:29PM EST
3 openings for TRADEMARK PARAS
2 OPENINGS FOR BANKRUPTCY PARAS
2 openings for TRUST & ESTATES PARA - OPEN FOR UP TO 125K PLUS BONUS
ALL PARALEGALS MUST HAVE AT LEAST 4 YEARS OF LAW FIRM EXPIENCE TO QUALIFY.
LEGAL SECRETARIAL POSITIONS
2 FLOATING
1 LITIGATION - PAYING UP TO 85K
2 CORPORATE - PAYING UP TO 70K
ALL CANDIDATES MUST HAVE EXPERIENCE AS A SECRETARY IN A LAW FIRM.
Location: midtown
Compensation: 55K TO 120K - depending upon expereince
OK to highlight this job opening for persons with disabilities
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
Please, no phone calls about this job!
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
PostingID: 994144792
Are you saying that a Nigerian undergrad law degree is equivalent to an American JD?
Nigeria is an oil rich nation. In order for Bush's cronies to get a foothold into that nation, they have been handing out green cards like candy to the corrupt warlords. Let's just say that the way these privileges have been handed out hasn't been exactly above board. Blagojevich has nothing on these people.
It's all just another example of how our gov't and the corporations sell us out.
One of the definitions of racism is its irrational singling out of one group by making false statements about them for the purpose of blaming them for one's own plight.
You certainly are not referencing Nigerians because you really believe they gain their education by selling a cow. That statement is not being said because you respect them either.
Your lack of a a job is because of the structure of our society, not because a vanishingly small number of Nigerians happen to be sitting next to you on a random project.
I am guessing many of you are white and male because this scapegoating is classic. Rather than addressing the true source of the problem- which is more than likely going to be found in your fellow white males using your economic situation.
That was the whole reason that poor whites came to think of themselves as better than blacks. Wealthy whites told them that so that they could stop realizing that it was wealthy whites who were using poor whites for economic gain.
If it were not Nigerians, you would have some other excuse that has nothing to do with the hard work of changing things.
I don't know what the actual requirements are for the Nigerians to work in this field. Do they sit for the bar?
My experience has been that they are usually the nicest group of people on the project. They are polished, polite and easy going. Half of the temps on these projects need psychiatric help.
Indian outsourcing is more of an issue than the handful of Nigerians doing document review work.
"The staffing firms sell you to the lowest bidder, keep 50-70% of what they are billing you for, and fire you at any time."
Having been the person that deals with many of these types of invoices at my firm, this is just an inaccurate statement (albeit a commonly held falsehood amongst many contract attorneys)
So it's more like 15 to 30 percent. That's still way too much considering the staff agency often does very little than resume gathering to earn that 15 to 30 percent in many situations.
One week after Tom the Temp wins the ABA's Best Blog for Careers award and string of articles shedding light on the Temp world, we have people on here posting for Temps to remain calm and that the market for Temps is going to turn around. Coincidence? Or is it ABA staff and staffing agencies trying to round up the sheep?
No I think the agencies are saying that; simply because they don't want the permatemps thinking there's no work left, and have them go looking for permanent jobs, in case the market in fact improves later in the year.
The ABA doesn't give a shit about any of this bullshit. All they care about is feeding the BigLaw machine and hiding behind a facade of "upholding ethics" and keeping the practice of law "noble".
Ditto what 913 says. I think as long as we remain invisible (which we are) then the ABA and law schools do not care.
4:13, you are also a racist for singling out white males for bashing.
Foreign attorneys, regardless of their race or where they come from, should not be permitted to work in the US unless they have a J.D. from an ABA-accredited law school and sit for the bar exam.
These are the rules that US-native attorneys must follow. Why should it be different for foreigners?
It's not right that people from other lands can come to the US and with a minimum investment of time and money, do the same work for which US natives had to do three years of law school, plus pay an arm and a leg.
They get to save money and send it back to their countries while we struggle to survive and pay off massive student loans? C'mon now...
2:10 - Bravo on your post. I wish there was something that could be done - any intelligent give and take is ruined by the bigots who come on this board to rant about why their failures are some other group's fault.
Not too much of a coward to say it in real life, 2:10. Just smart. To say the truth without the cover of anonymity is suicide.
As it is really freaking cold, what would prevent setting up a job-action picket, where all ttt's in attendance wore ski-caps to avoid blackballing? Might be interesting....
This is off topic but in the original post, the attorney wrote "Worst. Experience. Ever."
Anyone else tired of seeing single words followed by periods? This is so unoriginal these days.
Just. Sayin'.
Yes, I'm tired of people who can't spell or write. Have you noticed lately that the online version of the New York Times as well as other online newspapers is full of typos. What's the deal? And, it's not just typos. Have they outsourced the editing and writing to India too??
"Have you noticed lately that the online version of the New York Times as well as other online newspapers is full of typos. "
Shouldn't that be "are" rather than "is"?
I am not a nitpick, and nor do I care about typos, spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, etc.
But, if you are going to criticize other people's mistakes, well, "those who live in glass houses" comes to mind.
Newsflash from THE John Bungsolaphagus: Law is a scammy, pathetic, pox upon society. Decent folks everywhere hate lawyers for good reason. It is mostly a make work, monkey work, very UNprestigous and dying "profession" for most.
Fools may have mortgaged their futures on lawschool tuition and loans and may not have other options but they become bigger fools every moment they stick it out thinking it well get better.
Unless one is a member of lawland's preferred, protected and or connected (PPC) classes and/or unless one scored at least in the 160's on their LSAT, one really has no business being in law.
A sub 160+ LSAT is not only a warning to NON PPC's it is THE DEATHNELL to their careers. Such scores negate one's attending the only lawschools worth attending for non PPC's: Top 14 schools.
If you are a NON PPC and graduated from a toilet school and did not land a job in OCI while in school there really was no reason to finish lawschool, study for the bar and gain admission because there is nothing but chronic unemployement, underemployment, or perhaps...doc review or even worse than that....SHITlaw.
Now with outsourcing there is little worthwhile doc review to go around. Good doc review is the only worthwhile thing about law for most. Can make great money in it with little stress. Its obliteration means that there is little reason to stay in law.
Shitlaw is the worst. Leads to poverty, misery, anal penetration, self destruction and a totally dead end career for most. And now, with the glut of attorneys, shitlaw gets even more demanding and worse.
Legal lemmings: stop deluding yourselves with protestations that it will get better and leave law A.S.A.P.
oh mccarter. how i miss thee.
3:21, I think that this would be a great basis for a musical...along the same line as "newsies." I really miss Mccarter...
By the way...I applied for a job at starbucks. you will be happy to know I was overqualified.
12-14 hours a day 7 days a week . . . sounds familiar. Who thinks they were being properly paid for overtime and given meal and rest breaks? Maybe you'd like to buy out my time share : - ))
12-14 hours per day seven days a week . . . who thinks these guys were paid for their overtime and missed meal and rest breaks? Do any of these firms comply with overtime and labor laws?
Who knows where to download XRumer 5.0 Palladium?
Help, please. All recommend this program to effectively advertise on the Internet, this is the best program!
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