Thursday, January 28, 2010

Carolyn Lamm To Defrauded Law Students: "Drop Dead And Go Eat Cake!"


Looks like Queen Lamm of the ABA is merely going to "look into" the blatantly fraudulent self-reported employment statistics and the sleazy shenanigans of the subprime banking/educator operators.


"Finally, with respect to your specific question about requiring changes in the way schools report salary and employment information on their recent graduates, the Section is in fact looking at ways it might revise its annual questionnaire to law schools to elicit additional information. While there is no evidence that we have seen that schools are inaccurate in their reports, we may not be asking all the right questions, and that is under review. But we also encourage prospective students to consider carefully their decision to attend law school, their choices of schools and how they finance legal education. We are concerned about student debt and the burden it places on graduates. But we do not equate that concern with limiting entry into the profession. As I said in my letter, we believe it is important that the legal profession be open to entry from all elements of society. The law is not and should not be a closed club."



http://abovethelaw.com/2010/01/aba_defends_itself_and_the_nee.php?show=comments#comments

97 comments:

Anonymous said...

Carolyn Lamm and that racketeer influenced and corrupt organization parading as a professional association have no shame.

Why are the AMA and ADA able to limit the number of seats and schools for dentisty and medicine? Maybe it might have something to do with protecting the interests and investments of their practitioners.

But, alas, Carolyn, we cannot close off the "profession" - or else there might be less JDs driving buses, selling insurance, and reviewing mortgage applications!

The ABA has 1000 employees but is terrified of going to court, in its own defense! This is embarrassing - you almost feel sorry for these wretches.

Anonymous said...

Cooley fails out 1/3rd of its 1st year class, ripping off 30 grand from kids who will never ultimately get a JD. Crap schools popping up on every corner with used car salesmen stats. BLS lies to US News and gets away with it. It is the crazy wild wild west. Carolyn is a failure for glossing over these issues.

Anonymous said...

If by some amusing chance, this decrepit skank reads these pages, let her know that I am a top 10 grad, law review, 8+ years BIGLAW experience, and just gave notice at a $55 and hour temp job to go to a $60 an hour temp job.

This bitch can suck my dick.

Anonymous said...

Just another shrill phony in the pocket of biglaw. I can't wait until her inevitable resignation.

Another out of touch asshole.

Anonymous said...

Ms. Lamm is partner at White & Case. The firm makes a ton of money off of cheap contract labor. It is Ms. Lamm's economic interest to have available heavily indebted graduates and to issue decisions that outsource work to India.

Nando said...

Here is a link to the ABA's accreditation fee schedule:

http://www.abanet.org/legaled/accreditation/sitevisit/fees.html

The ABA would rather take the money and approve more fourth tier trash cans, than protect the interests and investment of legal practitioners and law students.

Plus, the ABA is the servant of Biglaw. The curriculum produces replaceable parts of the machine. Top legal students get burned out from Biglaw rather quickly. With so many JDs pumped out every year, Biglaw never has to worry about finding another crop of "whiz kids."

Also, look at this:

http://infilaw.com/policyboard.htm

Infilaw Corporation OWNS three U.S. law schools, i.e. Phoenix, Florida Coastal, and Charlotte law schools. YOU CAN SEE THAT A FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE ABA, DENNIS ARCHER, SERVES ON THE NATIONAL POLICY BOARD OF INFILAW. (I am sure there was no favoritism or conflicts involved in this arrangement. They don't even care about the transparency, anymore.)

It always comes down to money with these guys.

Nando/Third Tier Reality

Anonymous said...

Interesting. It is like one giant corrupt octopus.

This Dennis Archer character sounds just like Massasar. Owner of for profit law school sits on board of bank and is co-associated with ABA committee.

Anonymous said...

My unemployment benefit year is due to expire soon. I still have several months left on the old claim due to the unemployment extensions granted by the Congress in December. Will I still have to file a new claim - and if I do will I have to go through the unpaid "wait week" ?

Anonymous said...

1:38 - It depends. At the one year anniversary mark you will have to call them up and see where you stand. They will review the last 6 months and determine whether you are eligible to file a brand new claim. If you aren't, you can continue to collect under the old extended unemployment claims.

Anonymous said...

Ms. Lamm has only one thing on her mind, in this new ABA role....how will assist my firm in attracting a larger client base, how will this line my resume and keep the partnership from forcing me out like many other non-performing partners, and thank god I have this position if I can't attract new clients due to economy and/or if I've lost clients due to economy. Trust me, she could care less about anything else. Not enough time except to put herself and her firm #1, everyone else is on their own, just as is true of she. I suspect she is of the generation of women who had a tough time getting there, and thus her perspective will be "I did it, you do it on your own".....its a dog eat dog world out there.

Anonymous said...

You are giving Ms. Lamm too much credit. She is merely a mouthpiece for Biglaw the overpaid administrative bureaucrats she represents. I think the only thing she really cares about is what time "precious" her poodle is going to come out of the weekly pedicure.

The Yuppie Attorney said...

The ABA is the problem not the solution. The general tone of the article is, "I don't expect to find; therefore I will not find problems." What is this, "I will ask in the annual questioner." The ABA is supposed to regulate Law schools, not the other way around. Hell, ask the EPA if Union Carbide sees emission of high level of Benzene gas as a problem.

I feel sorry for the people who would have had accurate information then chose to go a better path. Now, the have a legitimate bitch. They were not told upfront the consequences of their decision.

Anonymous said...

They lie. Even after fudging the statistics, they outright lie.

But the ABA does not care. As long as the PPP at the Biglaw firms continues to climb, they don't give a damn about the proles or the fraud.

Anonymous said...

WOW, what a spin doctor Carolyn Lamm is. Lets dissect Carolyn Lamm's statement:

"Section is in fact looking at ways it might revise its annual questionnaire to law schools to elicit additional information" - "Looking into it" is a typical way to avoid answering a question. How about this: for every year they spend "looking into the matter", law school tuition gets cut 10%. They've been looking into it for years and law school debt is as much as 3 times a first year associate's gross salary!

"While there is no evidence that we have seen that schools are inaccurate in their reports, we may not be asking all the right questions, and that is under review." -- Absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence. Has anyone seen 'Thank you For Smoking'? Carolyn Lamm must have written the screenplay! The fact that Carolyn Lamm say "we may not be asking all the right questions" is strong evidence that Carolyn Lamm knew those questions were designed to skew reality all along.

"We are concerned about student debt and the burden it places on graduates. But we do not equate that concern with limiting entry into the profession." If Carolyn Lamm and her posse of THIEVES are really concerned, there either would be more grant programs so disadvantaged students wouldnt have to graduate with such a huge debt load or law school tuition would be substantially lower. Take your pick Carolyn!

Its amazing how then Carolyn Lamm turns the whole piece about having access available from all elements of society. So now we're elements? As in riff-raff? the hoy poloy?! Carolyn Lamm should be ashamed of herself!

Carolyn Lamm did not address the issue of skyrocketing tuition, freefalling wages or fraudulent law school statistics. It would be a dream come true if Carolyn Lamm or any of her co-conspirators got indicted for this scheme.

Carolyn Lamm said...

Our mission is to serve equally our members, our profession and the public by defending liberty and delivering justice as the national representative of the legal profession.

Anonymous said...

What is there possibly to look into?! The law school statistics should report the following:

1. Number of students in graduating class

2. Percentage of students who responded to survey

3. Percentage employed in the PRACTICE OF LAW.

4. Median salary of those employed.

5. Salary range.

When those questions are answered, what will be revealed is that only 1% of the class responded (perhaps the top 1%) and when you have that type of response rate, the stats automatically should go out the window along with the law school application.

Normally, those who are employed and happy with their position will want to report it and share it with the world while those unemployed, underemployed, or employed but miserable don't have the time or inclination to respond.

Anonymous said...

Carolyn Lamm views the debt slaves that toil away in her W&C basement as "elements" of society. What a pompous elitist B!

Anonymous said...

Remember, while Ms. Lamm "looks into it", the worst economic recession since the Great Depression rages on. Not that Ms. Lamm would notice. PPP have been up this entire time.

Anonymous said...

The massive increase of law students and visibility of the law school cartel is a superficial distinction from such phenomenoms like massive alcoholism in places like Russia or poverty in Mexico in that both are rooted in massive systemic widespread societal mental spiritual, and personality disorders.

Anonymous said...

Ahh the Big Law partner doesn't think there is anything wrong with the way Law Schools report statistics. She
"might" look into it.

Seriously, these folks have no spine when it comes to helping 90% of the lawyers out there who do not have big law jobs. Apparently there are zero problems with law deans serving on the boards of lending institutions. They couldn't possible be influenced or have a conflict of interest.

Every time the ABA calls me to join their membership, I tell them no fucking way just for this reason.

Anonymous said...

If she doesn't want to restrict entry into the legal field, then why is there CLE requirements, a bar admission process, a bar exam, and a schooling requirement? Just get rid of all of that and let people take the bar exam right after undergrad then. Make it an undergrad major, instead of a graduate degree.

I hate this profession. You would never see the medical board say they don't want barriers to entry and don't want to restrict entry into the profession, they'll actually purposely restrict it so there is a shortfall of physicians so that salaries stay high, and, theoretically, quality stays high.

I'd feel much better if there were no new lawyers for the next 5 years.

Rory The Retard said...

Miz Lamm look way too skinny. This broad need some meat on her cracklin' bones - lack of food why she not thinking straight. Why do rich Yankee women eat like poor people - one celery stick a day? Even that they throw up....I wish I could get Big Mamma to do that - that bitch be sittin' on my ass all day...

Anonymous said...

I bought into the hype, as a 2nd career, and attended a (now) 4t school here in the NE. Oh, guess what? After 18 years I'm unemployed (and a divorcee) and still about 52000 in debt. 'Ben...Why didn't you tell me?'

Anonymous said...

sounds to me like shes doing the old "30,000 foot view" defense, which is, "well all that stuff is below me and I have to rely on others to tell me the truth," its the same defense Ken Lay used. Some one please put these people in jail.

Temporarily Yours said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Carolyn Lamm said...

Did you know the ABA policy-making House of Delegates passed by an overwhelming voice vote a resolution calling on Congress to repeal a section of the Defense of Marriage Act? At the American Bar Association, we support our homosexual friends.

Peter Weller said...

Joe Hendricksson: What are we doing? What in God's name are we doing Chuck?

Chuck Elbarak: We don't know if it’s true about Green, I mean we just saw...

Joe Hendricksson: We saw bullshit is what we saw. You know as well as I do they can send us anything they want. Hell, they can make a Goddamn hologram out of a dog and pony show.


Chuck Elbarak: Joe, that kid doesn't know policy, he’s a grunt...

Hendricksson: Get your head outta the lilacs man.

Chuck Elbarak: What do you expect me to believe here? That we're being dumped just like that? That twenty years of death and a stand against the horror up here has turned into a fucking galactic gold rush? Why do they keep sending us provisions? What do you think, that they're waiting for us to grow old and die up here so they can...carry on running the universe?

Joe Hendricksson: Yes.

Chuck Elbarak: Well fuck you, I don't buy it!

Joe Hendricksson: Well, wake up man! We are betrayed here, brother. We are beached! We're stuck, you heard that kid! Green's been shit-canned and this whole goddamn place is a lie! I mean, they just can't cut us off up here, because too many families back on Earth would raise hell about it and they sure as hell ain't gonna take us back there! If we sound off about this, nobody's gonna fight their fucking war for them. So they're just gonna let us roll on and on and on up here... until we're dead and we ain't ever getting off here, Chuck. I'll tell you something else, Marshall Richard Cooper and his NEB command knows it Goddamn well too, and that’s why he sent us a Goddamn map! And your single, solitary NEB grunt came over here and got his ass shot to stop this thing! They know it's pointless now!

Captain Renault said...

As Madam Lamm's top investigator, I tell you I'm shocked, shocked to find false and misleading statistics in these law school brochures!

Anonymous said...

In defense of Cooley, they have always posted employment statistics openly and honestly. Most Cooley grads start at less than $40,000, they know they won't be making big bucks.

The first years are made fully aware by documentation, and a warning the first day, that the school is really, really hard but if they work their asses off, they will graduate.

Its a risk they take, just like everything else in life.

And 12:52, what about the 100,000 ripped off from most college grads when they realize they might as well use that History degree to wipe their ass because its only going to guarantee pathetic wages, barely above the blue collar stiffs?

The school is sort of a niche for gung-ho types who want to work as Michigan prosecutors, PDs and solos.

Anonymous said...

You've got to be kidding me, what about that ridiculous alternate ranking system created by Cooley that placed them and their grads in the top 15?

That place is one of the worst, incredibly misleading with its marketing and stats. Many law schools tell 1L's that things are tough on the first day, but not many seek to crate an alternate reality.

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/cooley_law_school_develops_mor.php

Felchmaster Flash said...

I would like to nominate Carolyn Lamm to win the "beastly behavior" award for 2010.

Anonymous said...

Another lying ABA whore.

Anonymous said...

We need to set up a Weatherman to engage guerilla warfare against the ABA and corrupt state bars.

Is anyone hearing our voice Tom?

I don't think so. We're being drowned out by Bitch Lamm's and the law schools lies and propaganda.

Anonymous said...

I wish someone would ask this woman who she believes the ABA represents. Also, how can the ABA approve more law schools when an ever widening slice of the legal work pie is being done in India?

How can they simultaneously approve unbearably expensive law schools
and the offshoring of the work these grads are supposed to perform?

She is an evil shill, representing the greediest, most arrogant swine on the planet.
The ABA should be sued for antitrust and a new organiZation assembled to take it place that represents the rank and file, not the golden biglaw elite.

Anonymous said...

People don't get to be partners at major law firms by caring for others. No one expects this woman to "look into" anything - except her bank account.

Prince Michael III

Anonymous said...

Where is Helga, where is Sonia, Lifer??? Only stupid and boring people seem to be left on this blog -- all the interesting people seem to have succumbed to some mysterious epidemic.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, the preceding blog response is on point. Ms. Lamm is not about to do anything "out of the box" such as leading a chrage to close the bottom 13rd of law schools, even though her own law firm would never hire anyone from a law school not in top tier. If she believes retaining open the bottom 1/3rd of law schools is worth it to the profession, the students, and the applicants, lets see her own law firm begin actually hiring students from the bottom 1/3rd law schools. If White & Case isn't about to put its reputation on the line and do so, then tacit evidence, keeping them open does nothing but line the doc reviewers and pro bono ranks that a firm like White & Case needs to exploit, so that its associates and partners can continue to fraudulently bill and line the partners' (herself included) pockets. Heh, she should put herself on the line for her words, otherwise she is a hypocrite.

Anonymous said...

She should be put on trial, her and the dental insurance cabal that denies lisa her braces.

DPLNB

Sonia said...

This lady is out of touch. I am sure her lavish at home D.C. champagne parties are spectacular, but until she knows what it feels like to fight like a rabid pitbull as an older middle aged woman for scrap temp jobs against fresh out of school twenty five year olds, she has no clue.

Anonymous said...

I went to Cooley in the early aughts. Despite what the previous poster says, the administration was not incredibly forthcoming with information about post-grad employment or bar passage.

At some point in time (probably a fluke February administration) Cooley grads attained a 90 something percent pass rate of the MI bar. Cooley flaunted that rate for nearly a decade even when the actual pass rate dipped well below 50% in its home state.

Cooley is, as I assume all TTT & TTTT’s are, a total scam designed to fleece the underclass who dare to dream of a job that doesn’t involve manual labor. Fail out 33% first year- another 33% of the remaining 66% in the second year and of that number 50%-75% eventually pass the MI bar.

Doc review is a blessing compared to bearing lawyer debt without the credentials.

Anonymous said...

True dat, Ms. Sonia. I am glad you are back to present a mature worldy view as opposed to the juvenile ramblings of many of these posters.

Anonymous said...

Cooley sucks.........but doesn't anyone who goes there aware of this? You can't tell me they think it's a worthwhile place to go?

Just no choice with their $150,000 B.A. in History.

Stop the scam. Put all education and legal education on line.

When I was in college the only "experience" was sex and beer parties.

Anonymous said...

This woman cannot be described as anything but a pathological liar. The ABA apparently is a front organization for biglaw. I like the stylish sophistry of "there is no evidence" bla, bla, bla. In order for this Miami grad to become a biglaw partner she probably had to lie more than pinnochio. To pump more law students into the system while simultaneously outsourcing the few doc review jobs they relied on can only be described as pure evil. We know it, You know it and "Lamm" knows it. If there is a God He knows it as well.

Anonymous said...

I call for Lamm's resignation.

Anonymous said...

But the law IS a closed club, Carolyn.

Anonymous said...

"I don't think there's much excuse for a 3L with good grades from a T20 not to have a job."

This shows how clueless you are about such things. You've said repeatedly that law students don't know much about how law firms work (fair enough). Well, the opposite is apparently true too.

I'm not a 3L any more, so my situation isn't exactly what you are responding to, but: I went to a T25, had great grades, clerked for a federal judge last year, and haven't been able to find a job since -- it's been five months now. I'm admitted in three fucking states and can't find shit. Here's a breakdown of my job search:

Craigslist has *only* shitlaw positions in major cities. I.e., the firms that advertise on that site pay about 40k/year, which, with student loans, is simply not affordable. Yet I've still applied because I got nothing else going on, but haven't received a single interview offer. Perhaps it's because these crap firms still receive 400 resumes for the crap job. And when they have severe typos in their ads (which they often do), it doesn't inspire confidence. Craigslist is also non-existent in smaller cities/towns/villages/mud huts.

I tried signing up for contract work in two major cities with about 10 or more agencies in each city. Let me tell you that they are hands down the most incompetent companies I've ever encountered. I can't even *register* with them -- i.e., a five minute interview to see that I'm actually humanoid. When I have registered with them (three were kind enough to let me), they've told me point blank there are no jobs for me unless I've had ONE YEAR document review experience. Not a joke. I've been encouraged to lie and say I've worked with certain programs before to get a job, but I won't do it. When it's been three weeks since I've submitted my resume to them online, I call them up and say, hey I'd like to register if possible. When I tell them I submitted my resume online using their form, the retard answering the phones says, oh you should contact so and so at this email. So I email that person and I hear nothing. And I call again, and the same moron says I should email someone else. So I do and hear nothing. And then I call and she starts to get pissed at me, telling me that the routine is that I have to wait for them to contact me (which they never do). Sometimes they don't answer the phone even, or if I'm transferred to the contract attorney section they are always busy or out of the office. So that hasn't worked.

Anonymous said...

I check lawjobs.com and similar sites for listings but they are 99% by recruiters. Newspapers have nothing - nothing.


I've checked local bar association websites for listings and they are similarly useless - i.e., PI attorney with 5+ years experience going to court and trying cases, for 35k.


Recruiters will not work with me. No firm wants to pay them 10k or more so they can hire a junior associate, even with a federal clerkship. They can choose among the hundreds that apply directly to them for the nonexistence positions. One recruiter has worked with me -- Lateral Link -- but they are worthless. Every few months I get an email from my contact there asking if I'd be interested in Quinn Emanuel or Pillsbury or whatever. And I say yes please and never hear from the person again. Recently the person forgot who I was and asked me if she hadn't worked with me over a year ago. I clarified for her and haven't heard from her since.


Oh right, I've also tried to volunteer with the local prosecutor and public defender, etc. They won't take me as a volunteer because they don't have such "programs."


I'm forced to live at home, with my parents, in a state I'm not barred in, because unemployment is not enough to live on in a state I *am* barred in. And no, I'm not spending over $1000 to take a fourth bar exam in a state I hate. Oh right, I'm also not current with any state's CLE requirements because I can't afford to take them and don't live in those states.


So what has been useful? One of the states has a weekly publication for attorneys that has some decent jobs on it. I've gotten about two interviews from it in the months I've used it, but haven't landed the job. My school's career website has very few postings (maybe I find something to apply to once every two months), and I've only received one interview from that, which is currently pending. I have a buddy at a top five school and he lets me use his password for that school's job site, but guess what, it also has very little. Why? Because the economy is in the shitter. I apply through USAJobs but never hear anything back. Maybe it's because the Dept. of Agriculture knows I could care less about farm and cow-patty law even though my cover letter says I love it.


Almost always, when I do get an interview, I have trouble convincing the people there that I want to work in that city or state because I'm admitted in three states. I try to tell them I'd love to work for XX in XX city, but they often seem skeptical. Unless you want to work in NYC, it's almost like unless you were born and raised in that state and maybe city too you won't have a damned chance in hell of getting the job. They want "one of them." Your suggestion that people look across the country is, quite frankly, retardedly ignorant of reality. And for people who have already taken the bar somewhere, it's not an option.


That is my life. You clearly have no clue what many people like me are going through right now. It'd be great if you could offer some concrete suggestions. If you can't -- I doubt you can -- don't talk about something you obviously have no clue about. No excuse not to have a job now? Well fuck you buddy.

http://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1206519&mc=72&forum_id=2

Anonymous said...

Carolyn Lamm is acting solely in the interest of diversity, a truly laudable goal. If we shut down a bunch of lousy law schools, how are minorities going to become lawyers?

Anonymous said...

Carolyn Lamm believes that "supporting diversity" means allowing a predatory TTT like Cooley to admit an unsuspecting minority, load them up with 30 grand of debt, and flunk them out.

Anonymous said...

Anon@ 11:19:

Well said. To be honest, the best choice is to join the military as an officer, and then get transferred to their JAG programs. That doesn't seem to be a fair option though because with all that education your options should be better, and of course physically you're going to have trouble keeping up with the kids out of college, who are the people these programs are actually designed for. I hear even the military now though is fully staffed so you probably can't even get a good job from that. You may never even get that JAG transfer, and of course, you can also just get killed or seriously injured. So when I say "best" I pretty much just mean "at least you might be employed and the loan companies can't really come after you, because you don't even have anything you own."

I'm kind of getting by doing trial work. The hard part is convincing people that a young attorney is a good option to advocate on your behalf in court. That is why most young attorneys start work for the government who doesn't really care if they win or lose, or don't see the inside of a court room until they are well into their 30s at a big firm.

Right now I just barely make enough to travel and eat, I live at home with my parents so rent isn't a worry thank god. Of course, I'm at home because I can't afford not to be, which isn't exactly my choice and has its own problems.

I don't even make enough to file taxes yet. I guess I should file but if I owe anything at all I'm going to go bankrupt.

Anonymous said...

It's awfully racist to assume that a "minority" or "person of color" has to attend a newly opened gutter school to have "access" to the legal profession.

There are more than enough schools for all competent lawyers to be to attend law school.

The truth is, they are just riding the education bubble until it miserable end. The free money gushing from the Federal spigot will stop, at some point. Then these festering toilet schools will either drastically cut staff and tuition or close.

Much like the dotcom or housing bubble, this will not end well.

Anonymous said...

Minorities go to places like Cooley because the oppressed in society will always be oppressed in new and creative ways.
No big firm hired blacks, Arabs, Asians except as contractors.
It's a white boy club.


Remember, you can protest against this but lawyers want to be in the club.

Anonymous said...

The fed has been printing trillions of dollars out of thin air. This "money" has to go some where. Bubbles are popping up all around us as we speak. The eventual popping of the education bubble will be particularly nasty.

Anonymous said...

2:18

There's some semi-good news in all of this, at least.

The Obama Administration has nationalized the federal student loan program. That means ALL student loans will be essentially either given by the government or backed by the government, unless you take out private sector bank loans.

Also, this has given Obama the power to cap monthly student loan payments at 10% of net income excluding a modest living allowance. This is actually revolutionary news and one of the best things he announced in his State of the Union Address.

The next thing Obama needs to do is to gradually roll back or cap the total number of student loans available to law students. This would starve some of the shitty TTT law schools and they would die off.... decreasing the national glut of lawyers and improving everyone else's chances of finding good employment.

Anonymous said...

Do you really believe that Obama will propose "rolling back" or "capping" the number of student loans available? I doubt it. Like health care, this will merely supercharge the amount of educational inflation that has been rearing its ugly head. Either the Chinese are going to get tired of this nonsense and pull the plug, or the middle class is going to have to pay the piper for these bloated health care/education administrators through even more higher unemployment and lower standards of living.

Anonymous said...

Interesting that you changed the photo associated with this entry. The new pic makes her look somewhat personable.

Anonymous said...

The Obama takeover of education loans is just an attempt at wealth transfer to those who cannot afford schooling. Not necessarily a bad idea for loan forgiveness, but it's just another handout to his buddies at someone else's expense. Only those in public interest will get the subsidies and their loans paid off.

Also, without a cap on tuition an agreement to pay off the loans is absurd. It's like writing a bank check for the students and schools.

I would say you could have $25,000 to $50,000 discharged in this manner, but any more than that would be up to the student. Otherwise it will just be a gold rush for educational instiutions.

Anonymous said...

Barry's plan:

a) Stimulus package: In the greatest recession since the Great Depression, use a good chunk of the money to ensure that the public employee unions get to keep their jobs.

b) Health care reform: Enact a mandatory job-killing public mandate on the entire working population, but exclude the public employee unions from having to do so by protecting their cadillac plans.

c) Student loan reform: Enact an IBR plan that carves out special treatment for public union employees to discharge their loans after 10 years tax free. Everyone else has to wait 25 years and be subjected to a surprise in your face IRS bill.

Notice a pattern?

Anonymous said...

I assume that when Carolyn Lamm speaks of having no choice but to open the floodgates, that she is actually referring to not being accused of turning people away. Granted, this probably actually means white people like under the Hopwood and Grutter cases, but I guess it can mean anybody.

I went to a school where an administrator taught several kumbaya courses he railed on about the big evil corporations and the fact that they have social responsibilities. The school is not stand well in the rankings. Yet, in spite of this, he seems to think that he is carrying out a very important social mission by churning out minority graduates from unranked law schools; because, as you know, lower ranked law schools are the hotbed of creating Supreme Court Justices, senators, and incredibly wealthy and esteemed litigators who have personal chefs and show up to the courthouse in a limo. The next time that Nick Nolte gets in trouble, he's going to call upon his trusty attorney from Poor U. School of Law and pull them off of their court appointed hot check case to scare the prosecutors.

What does he say about the fact that they keep admitting more students and jacking up tuition at Poor U. School of Law?

"The tuition is so much because of demand for law school and that the fact that the market can bear it."

What does he say about people who want a job, but who can't find anything?

"They think they're entitled!"

OK, so, let me get this straight:
You keep going on and on about diversity and how corporations owe something to their communities at the expense of their own profits, but yet, it is perfectly OK for this school to increase the number of students admitted AND rip them off for thousands of dollars in tuition for a degree that has little value in the marketplace simply because there are thousands pounding their fists on the door and demanding admission? Isn't that a bit similar to the people who were pounding the doors of Country Wide and asking that they please get an Adjustable Rate Mortgage? Do you seriously want to sit up there and talk about all of the tactics that banks have used to take advantage of the poor and minorities and not see the irony that you're pocketing money of people who are not going to find a job and who don't even have the skills to fight a traffic ticket? These people who will be telling people in a year that they thank god that their parents have given them a roof over their head because they don't know where they would be? Who are you seriously helping, sir? Yay, you can feel good that you graduated one more brown or black attorney and then not be there when they can't even actually practice law because the market is so tight and you feel no social responsibility towards lowering tuition or decreasing enrollment, can you?

Anonymous said...

Is it me, or does Carolyn Lamm look like Grandpa from The Munsters TV show?

Anonymous said...

WTF is going on with Yorkson? I've been submitted and (apparently) not picked for like 3 recent gigs w/ them? Are these jobs just getting cancelled?

anyone with any info on yorkson's gigs plese share

Anonymous said...

wtf does this have to do with minorities in the first place? You guys are completely scope shifting here.

The problem is there are too many law schools period. There should only be 20. That's it, 20 total law schools in the entire nation. Even that is probably too much since only the top 8 seem to graduate students with a good chance of getting a high paying job, but it's at least better than this.

I don't know what TTT is supposed to be, but I'm pretty sure it's "officially" not the top 50 or so law schools. Plenty of minorities make the top 50, hell, plenty make the top 10. Harvard and Yale have plenty of minorities as well.

The problem isn't being a minority, it's the damn number of schools. It's not like employers are falling all over themselves to hire Joe Whiteguy from Cooley either. Or hell, from fucking Georgetown anymore.

Anonymous said...

2:08 There are many minorities on these document review projects. They constitute a large percentage.

Anonymous said...

10:42, my point is that they keep adding more schools and expanding enrollment because it is a direct response to cases like Hopwood. Let's say they limit the number of law schools to the top 14 (let's forget for a minute that most of the top 14 is centered around the Northeast, and places like North Dakota and Arkansas also need attorneys and that having law schools within those lowly states still gives experience in local practice). My question to you is this: how many pissed off white kids (and parents) do you think there will be in the aftermath?
That's a good chunk of why the ABA is not going anywhere near the issue of limiting enrollment or cutting off the number of law schools. Not only that, the second you start cutting enrollment, all sorts of groups are going to be mooching off the teet of government funding and are going to come forth with all sorts of statistics about minorities in schools and how cutting enrollment hurts them. It then becomes too much fodder for people who just don't know what in the hell is really going on. In the end, the charge will be led by those same people who are self-proclaimed experts on Iraq or the health care crisis because they saw some bonehead say "the Earth is flat!" on the news one night. Schools will ride it out as they always have: bring in a level of diversity that they can loudly pat themselves on the back over and then quietly dump them the second the streamers and confetti have been swept away. Everybody else who lives the horror is going to be completely ignored because they don't hold doctorates in statistics and sociology and are therefore not experts. It's a bit like Columbus discovering America when it appears that loads of people had already discovered America for centuries.

It makes the ABA's day much easier just to go ahead and let everybody in. They figure that they've given everybody on both sides of the aisle what they wanted.

Anonymous said...

Regarding the Yorkson question:

They are f---ing with your mind.

If you read this blog they are doing this to everyone. Only with Yorkson do they contact you with fake job listings. Then you answer and they ignore you.

Oh there is one other infamous recruiter who does this - Shawn Treadwell.

Anonymous said...

The ABA and Carol Lamm are completely out of touch with the vast majority of law students. They are completely ignorant of what the high debt burden does to law graduates who could not find work, even in supposedly "good" times.

No wonder the ABA is a dying organization that loses more and more members each year. This organization doesn't help people outside of biglaw.

Most of these overpriced private law schools are little more than diploma mills designed to increase the revenue of a university. The ABA doesn't care to take them to task, because the system as it stands provides biglaw with thousands of desperate people who will take contract work for low wages.

Anonymous said...

Why do the AMA and ADA not have these problems? They restrict enrollment just fine.

Anonymous said...

As a shorty playing in the front yard of the crib
Fell down, and I bumped my head
Somebody helped me up and asked me if I bumped my head
I said "Yeah"
So then they said "Oh so that mean we gon, you gon switch it on em'?"
I said "Yeah, Flipmode, Flipmode is the greatest"
Knowing as a shorty, I was always told
That if I ain't gon' be part of the greatest
I gotta be the greatest myself

C'mon C'mon, Yeah, C'mon
Yeah nigga what, what a surprise
Get ya sumn', make a nigga close both of your eyes
All my niggas gettin' money capitalize
Die little small guy, we on the rise
Everything a nigga touch platinumize
Fully equipped, you know we come wit' all the supplies
Got a big gun, and I'ma show you the size
You fuck wit' any of my Flipmode family ties
Me and my niggaz be comin' through stalkin' you out
Killin' off any and everything you talkin' about
See you in the club, now we walkin' you out
Shoulda' thought twice 'fo you went and opened your mouth
Yo, anyway we stay keepin it movin'
Fuckin' with the wrong nigga, hope you know what you doin'
Now blame me, all the same niggas is lame
It's not a game, makin' names still splittin' your frames!

[Chorus:]
Y'all niggas had enough?
Gimme some more
Y'all niggas want the wild shit?
Gimme some more
Yo Spliff where the weed at?
Gimme some more
I know ya'll niggas need that
Gimme some more
Even though we getting money you can
Gimme some more
With the cars and the big crib
Gimme some more
Everybody spread love
Gimme some more
If you want it let me hear you say
Gimme some more

Flash with a rash gimme my cash flickin my ash
Runnin' with my money son go out with a blast
Do what you want, a nigga's cuttin' the corner
You fuckin' up, oh to go ahead and meet the reporter
Yo, she tellin' news on how you switch to a bitch
Little fake funny style, nigga chill with a snitch
So now I pass and trait over your blood and to ask you
Make a little room for me and all my niggas to pass through
Cartier, Sidney Poitier, hooray shit
What with all my niggas from around the way shit
When I come through you niggas know I do my thing
Bring more shit that generate money, chi-ching
Arrest you lyrically flow and caress you
Bless you, then a nigga come to your rescue
While you assume a nigga blossom and bloom
I'm comin' soon hit you with a boom gimme some room!

[Chorus]

Yo, live nigga shit know what I mean
I represent while we gettin' money and reign supreme
Hope you niggas know we comin' through full steam
Can't see you better turn on your high beam
All my niggas while I'm ringing the sireen
Flipmode be the glory niggas on my team
Never should you ever try to fuck wit' my cream
I O.D when my shit get all in your bloodstream
Everytime we be rippin' it be blowing it down
Blowing you off fuckin' wit' the hottest niggas around
Like it's when me and my people run through your town
Holdin' it down takin' a while and then gimme my crown
Ay, yo! All my people need to come and surround
A nigga be hittin' so much it make you fall on the ground
Sure to make you shout that's what I be all about
Turnin' you out makin' all you niggas fall out!

Anonymous said...

My Unemployment benefit year is up. I am still eligible for a few more months under the extension. Have not had a gig in over a year (and not for lack of trying!). Still have about 30 K in student loans that can't be discharged either. The annual Bar Dies, the annual CLE requirements. FOR WHAT? May Lamm and her cohorts all choke on cocktail olives at their next self congratulatory cocktail party. All those evil bastards and bastardettes taking part in exporting our work to Mumbai can too.

Anonymous said...

10:28 - Sara Kim is very moody and temperamental. Get used to it. Yorkson is da ghetto.

fanofSkolnick said...

Law schools are special in that they are essentially institutions attached to a major sector of the government--its judicial branch. For example, if you try to sue your law school for giving you a bad education, you'll find that the 11th Amendment (immunity) kicks in. Joining the bar of your state is becoming an officer of the court.

That makes Lamm's attitude that much more spooky. Courts have the power to administer the lethal injection, keep someone in prison, or make them pay fines. Law school opens the doors to how ass-stupid some of the legal theories are to justify the deeds and power of courts, as well as how ineptly some high-ranking justices implement these theories. The ABA has a million reasons to regulate these law schools, but making sure JDs get jobs is way down there in the priorities.

If Lamm wanted to really show the true face of the ABA, she'd make sure law schools stopped idolizing jurists like Oliver Wendell Holmes or Clarence Darrow. A more fitting jurist to Lamm's style of getting things done would be Pontius Pilate.

Anonymous said...

12:07

You make a lot of good points, but has anyone ever tested your premise that if someone sues their lawschool for providing an inferior education, "the 11th Amendment kicks in"? How do you know that? Is there case precedent?

Along the same lines as your premise, though, has anyone ever asked themselves why law school is the ONLY professional or graduate school setting where it is considered out of bounds, and unheard of, to formally question or appeal the exam grade a professor gives you?

Think about this. My question is WHY? And why is law school the ONLY university or graduate school setting why this is considered wholly inappropriate?

If you think about it, do you remember ANYONE during your 3 years of law school who did this, successfully or unsuccessfully? Did YOU ever get an exam result which you HIGHLY QUESTIONED and became very frustrated over? Why didn't you contest the grade? Peer pressure not to? An explicit regulation of the law school? Or some "unstated" policy that your final grade is incontestible and unappealable?

What separates law school from other grad school programs where it is possible to contest exam and final grades?????

Anonymous said...

To 11:18 AM who said "Craigslist has only shitlaw positions in major cities"...

Craigslist does have a lot of shitlaw positions. But to say it ONLY advertises shitlaw positions is NOT TRUE AT ALL!!!

I myself have landed two jobs which were definitely NOT SHIT LAW on Craigslist.... I moved from one to another. At the first I was making $66K, now in the second I am making $88K as my SALARY. And no, these are not temp jobs or doc coding.

Check out DC Craigslist, Jan. 29 ads:

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/lgl/

fanofSkolnick said...

I’m glad you asked about suing law schools about something like grades and the 11th Amendment. Awhile back I combed through Westlaw trying to find a precedent and found lots of cases about suing a law school regarding its procedures (along with stuff like not supplying wheelchair ramps etc.), but the only case I deemed relevant was Lupert v. California State Bar 761 F.2d 1325, in which a woman tried to sue based on the theory that she had a right to practice law. She thought the California “Baby Bar” examination was unfair based on its content. That’s where I got the 11th Amendment issue from, since the court used it to show that she could not challenge the content of the test because officers of the court can put out any content they want and not be legally challenged. I hope someone else can read this case and tell me I’m wrong, but that’s how I interpreted it.

And yes, oh yes, I’ve gone into my professors’ air-conditioned private offices (the lair where they like to make their butts nice and fat) and looked them in the eye and basically told them what genuine idiots they were. One of my CrimLaw professors actually wrote an exam that in effect said that a paranoid schizophrenic can use the insanity defense only if the voices in their head told them to specifically do the crime. That has got to be the silliest legal theory of all time! (Anybody heard any sillier legal theories? I’d love to hear them.)

Hope there can be a string started here on challenging law schools and law professors...

Anonymous said...

Joan Wexler at Brooklyn Law School earns $504,000 a year with full benefits.

David said...

Lady Lamm sounds like a real pain in the ass - they all are. I wouldn't do her - and I do anyone! God save us from these trolls...

Anonymous said...

2:07

Joan Wexler's salary sounds like "Too Big to Fail".... sounds like the insane bonuses on Wall St. We've got to move away from this winner-take-all society.

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah, and one more thing.

Are there any Italians, Puerto Ricans, African-Americans, Irish, Jamaicans, Indians, or any other group who make obscene salaries like Joan Wexler's at Brooklyn Law?

Anonymous said...

TTT schools are too big to fail.

Anonymous said...

Yorkson gigs never seem to go fwd. I've been coding for years and have yet to hear of ANYONE ever getting a job w/ them.

I think Sara Kim is just lonely and posts these ads for something to do. Or maybe they just don't get the work (cases get settled last minute?)

at any rate, they never have the courtesy to email or call and say why one gets dinged

Anonymous said...

Yorkson sucks. They always call me to start a project the next day or same day - listen bitches - I do shit the days I am not working. Like go to doctors, interviews, volunteer - I am not sitting at home all day waiting for your ass to call and jump up and go in to work the next day. Call me for a proper job with a few days notice...or else kiss my ass...

Anonymous said...

Screw reporting the number of people who respond to the survey. Make everyone respond as a condition of licensure. For god's sake the bar has set up the most elaborate system for tracking CLE for general requirements, substance abuse requirements and ethical requirements every odd number of years, they can certainly make everyone report their employment and what they make. end of discussion.

Anonymous said...

Wow. It didn'take long for this blog to slide back into the sewer. When Lawis4Losers was maning the helm, the comments actually looked reasonably intelligent. Now we are back with the C Bomb being dropped. Seriously, why on earth would this blog get nominated by the ABA with such misogynistic filth on it?

Anonymous said...

9:23

Maybe because the ABA are misogynistic filth, too?

Anonymous said...

Take it easy 9:23 - take a lxative.

Anonymous said...

6:09

You got your head screwed on backwards, nephew! Time to wake the fuck up and stop blaming everything on the "public employee unions"... whoever they are. They constitute like 0.0002 percent of all workers in the US. Time to realize the corporate media, FOX and Limbaugh have shoved your head so far up your ass you're squinting out of your navel.

Anonymous said...

THROW OFF YOUR CHAINS SNUGGIE PEOPLE!!!

YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT THE DEBT THAT ENSLAVES YOU!!

Anonymous said...

You are all boring. Sonia has the best comments. I agree with her - it's tough for old goats to get out there and fight like a crazed bitch for mealy scraps of work - and then you have all these young hos who have yet to acquire any style dressed like hookers in cheap polyester clothes...just because you passed the bar does not mean shit girlfriend - try to have some class as well - or you will forever be giving some cheap staff attorneys BJs.

Anonymous said...

Haiti Schmaiti - an earthquake hit me long ago in the form of a breaking job market -- where is my aid???? Who is singing sad songs for me???

Anonymous said...

Haiti's only an issue because the president is black.
Articles say Haitian were wary of US aid. F--- them!
Let them roast.

PS the Nigerian Lawyers Association is based not in Africa but in New York! check out nigerianlawyers.com. It makee sense because theyre all working here.

Tally me banana.

Anonymous said...

Stop supporting the ABA; stop sending pledges, screw'em!

Anonymous said...

Yorkson is not the only firm with ads for non-existent jobs. Hire Counsel in Philly did it to me and others not long ago. Accordingly, the subsequent internet-based reviews were not positive.

Anonymous said...

re: Yorkson...Are you all aware that they place many of us within their internal PC log system of registrants into something called "Lemmings"...guys, I think they have no business, they merely hussle people to get leads, and they spend alot of time running a sports pool that they market to internal staff counsel in-house or to law firms, in hopes they get business thrown their way.......I do not think they have any business period. They also seem to have a cadre of alleged recruiters who merely are friends of friends, well placed, who hussle anyone and eveyone for leads...and if they come up with an account that needs doc reviewers, there is a fee split. I don't think they are real.

Anonymous said...

The only good thing about all this is probably that a lot of young men won't financially ruin themselves through marriage, this option is pretty much unavailable to us now. For those that were already married, you'll probably get divorced soon enough, for those that were going to, it's going to get called off because you're in heavy debt and not a stable partner.

For women, I don't know that it affects them as much, but it probably narrows the pool further in terms of the men being considered.

Oh well, at least this whole lawyer thing is usually good for 3-4 dates at least (which can be enough depending on the girl for a quick shag at least). Eventually though I assume women won't be impressed by someone being an attorney since so many of us make shit pay in NYC now.

Anonymous said...

"we believe it is important that the legal profession be open to entry from all elements of society. The law is not and should not be a closed club." -- Carolyn Lamm

Lamm is (conveniently and by design) viewing all this through leftist ideological glasses. I wish these dishonest wretch liberals would learn some BASIC ECONOMICS. ABA schools are graduating 45,000 JDs and THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH JOBS FOR THOSE GRADUATES.

Anonymous said...

11:18

I have the exact same story. When I took the federal clerkship, everyone told me that I would have my pick of jobs when it ended. I have been unemployed for 14 months since. Another federal clerk that I know from a T5 has been unemployed for 9 months and in danger of losing his house. All we can do is hang in there and hope for the best. Things will get better sooner or later.

Truck Accident Lawyer New York said...

It is the crazy wild wild west. Carolyn is a failure for glossing over these issues.
Thanks..