"This problem is more widespread than some of you think. An attorney friend of mine has been in the hospital since a suicide attempt a few weeks ago.
Although he was once a partner at a mid-sized firm, since then, my friend has slid down the attorney food chain and has supported himself since the last downturn through contract work. (It is indeed true; once you start down the contract attorney path, it is very hard to get off it, especially if you're older.)
Unable to find any kind of work since being laid off from his last contract gig in the fall, my friend recently lost his apartment, moved in with relatives and is flat broke.
I'm not sure whether he has medical insurance to cover his hospital stay; he paid for insurance as long as he could, since he has chronic medical problems, but the last I heard, he was trying to get Medicaid.
Neither am I even sure how he is doing right now. He hasn’t been answering his e-mail."
-From Above the Law
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
167 comments:
Maybe he called the Hatesville Suicide Hotline!
It isn't surprising.
Contract work is considerably more stressful than a regular job (which is why most people look for permenant employment). Some of the projects are also living nightmares filled with a bunch of psychos who enjoy causing problems for other people. The agencies can also behave pretty terribly -- they staff attoneys on crummy projects and tease people with projects that never materialize. They also constently screw around with the hours so it's impossible to network and develop a long term plan. Blacklisting long term temps for minor screw ups or complaints from crazy bosses doesn't exactly help the situation either.
The solution is to get out of temping. Despite the constant pessimisim and negative attitude of the majority of temps, finding permenant employment isn't too hard to do.
I am holding out. My bank account is dwindling, but if I ever have to go back to S + C I think I will down some sleeping pills.
"The solution is to get out of temping. Despite the constant pessimisim and negative attitude of the majority of temps, finding permenant employment isn't too hard to do."
really? not at any reasonable pay rate or salary, not right now, and not if you dont have much on your resume more than doc review.
What perm jobs? Shitlaw? You do know that shitlaw is not hiring right now either, right?
I am holding out. My bank account is dwindling, but if I ever have to go back to S + C I think I will down some sleeping pills.
Maybe you should call the Hatesville Suicide Hotline. You might like the new you so much to postpone your plans!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwWUTO3M-GY
the suicide watch is a bit overboard and on the depressing side. contract attorney work is nobody's goal or dream. it does however pay the bills for the most part.
surely law school was deceiving. however, one control's their own destiny... when given lemons, please make lemonade...
I get an interview for a real gig once a month. However, I worked in a firm before I started temping. Now that the economy is picking up, I expect the rate of interviews will increase.
Have you guys been networking and sending out resumes (yourself not using some Bullshit recruiter who wants to keep you temping)?
If by reasonable salary, you mean 45-50K, I'm sure you can find something. By the way, you can live quite comfortably in Brooklyn or Queens on that salary. Personally, I'd rather be working an interesting job that provides me with some experience than be locked in some basement 60 hours a week so that I can afford a manhatten apt. that I never see.
"Hi, Joan King!"
yeah, networking...always works
ive only sent my resume to about 100 places, guess i need to start popping into Bar social events, then ill get a good job.
Joan King said networking was always the way to go about it. That's why her entry-level graduates are pulling in over $125K according to US News. Just network!
I agree that the solution is to get out of temping and stop whining about your life.
Networking DOES work. Have of you complainers actually tried it?
Get out of temping, but do not expect to get a worthnwile legal job anytime soon. 70 perecent of big firms are deferring summers up to a year and then laying people off a month after they show up. This is on top of the thousands of layoffs that have happened.
I have worked as a contract attorney and as a "real lawyer" doing substantive work.
It will probably be three or four years before this so-called profession recovers.
I think it is time to get out of law, and out of New York City, before one has to do so Snake Pleskin style.
Networking is the best way to find a job in any field. Law is no different. The people you should network with include friends and family (obviously) and anyone you've ever worked with in any legal job (or if you have past work experience, non-legal jobs). Any law school or college professors that you had a good relationship with might also be a good resource.
You'd be surprised at the number of people in your life that know a lawyer or two. And you never know when those lawyers might be hiring.
Most employers would rather interview someone who's been recomended by a friend or relative than interview strangers from a want ad.
The ABA or local committees are also a good source of contacts.
Also, keep in mind that the firms have to rehire the attorneys to replace the ones that have been laid off. So, don't think that there aren't any jobs. Whenever there's hiring, there's jobs, and things have changed recently. In mid-april the temp markets started to staff more projects and I would also guess that the hiring market has also picked up.
looks like the legal education industry shills are hard at work on this site trying to counteract the hundreds of pissed off lawyers without work who are getting out the truth about the law school scam
Put down the book Bit Tit Kim.
exactly 6:28
I meant to write put downthe book by Big Tits Kimbo. Sorry.
Yeah that's right, I'm a law school shill.
I tell you that temping sucks and you should find a real job, and then mention that you should send out resumes and network. But, I'm a law school shill.
You people need to get off your ass and help yourself. This temping as a career doesn't lead anywhere. The best you can hope for is to get stuck in the basement of some law firm and have to work 6 days a week.
Get off your ass and start sending out resumes and networking a little bit. You might surprise yourself and find a real job.
Muss ich mich wiederholen?
Get out of temping, but do not expect to get a worthnwile legal job anytime soon. 70 perecent of big firms are deferring summers up to a year and then laying people off a month after they show up. This is on top of the thousands of layoffs that have happened.
I have worked as a contract attorney and as a "real lawyer" doing substantive work.
It will probably be three or four years before this so-called profession recovers.
I think it is time to get out of law, and out of New York City, before one has to do so Snake Pleskin style.
Violence is an answer.
Anybody see that camp liberty shit? Dude tore up the stress response treatment center. That news reminded me of doc review. People are at the ends of there fucking ropes.
Networking is great if youv've got something going, but you ever hear the old adage that poor people smell funny in a job interview? It is true if you are chronically unemployed/underemployed you smell funny to an interviewer/networker. Plus most networking events don't take food stamps as payment.
So FUCK YOU.
Network this... okay network. Why don't you give us ten people to network with?
My network is comprised of unemployed attorneys, a few coders barely hanging on, the homeless guy on the corner and the collection agencies that call me.
I find this story all too true and within my perceivable future. It has come down to this for many more than we care to admit.
How many are seeing there accounts dwindle, lack insurance and see this as a real possibility?
Maybe we should start contacting our law schools about out plight and they can network us.
Seriously I'd love it if the aba, law school career centers and local bars were suddenly overwhelmed by out tales of hardship. Just hammer it to them. get the story out.
Kill a monkey and save a bananna.
Come on take ride with and smoke a blunt in the back of the benzi, oh why must I live this way... it must be the money. Talking about a party up in nyc, I'll be there, on the next flight, paying cash, first class, sitting next to vanna white. Running credit checks with no shame now, range rover all wood. why must I live this way,, must be the money.
Yes law school provided me with the dream! If my dream was being broke and mentally unstable.
it must be the money.
STAND UP> IF YOU ARE ON A PROJECT. GROW A PAIR AND REVOLT! Find a partner to network with. I am sure that a biglaw partner would happily take a collegue under there wing and help them in the spirit of comradeship amongst peers. Try networking some partners.
OR JUST FUKIN DIE YOU SCUM
8:35
You'll go far with that attitude. It's a real shock that you're trying to permatemp and are unemployed.
Sure 8:57, it's our fault. We messed up the economy. We glutted the market with so many attorneys. Those associates who have been fired for lack of work are also to blame. Why stop there? Blame all of those who have lost their jobs in this recession.
First(!), nobody kill themself or anyone else. Just wanted to say that. Suicidal extremes happen to document reviewers, as well to an identical portion of the general population (including poor people who smell bad, btw.)
Glad to see the market recover. Pizza Friday in 4 days!
Hey, did you see they found the professor who 86ed himself after murdering his wife, another professor (from another college, but with connection to his wife), and the husband of a teacher at his college (UGA, georgia, bitches)?
I suspect he was mentally ill like the individual in the post. Well, hopefully one of the two will get help.
BEEEEATCHHHHHHHHHH.
Anita
“Hotel Brooklawonia” The Leagles
On a dark New York highway, cool wind in my hair
Warm smell of gorditas, rising up through the air
Up ahead in the distance, on Joralemon Street
My heart grew heavy and my sight grew dim
I had to enroll for the night [program]
There Joan stood in the doorway;
I rang the admissions bell
And I was thinking to myself,
This school could be Heaven or it could be Hell
Then she whipped out a brochure and she showed me the way
There were voices down the corridor,
I thought I heard them say…
“Welcome to the Hotel Brooklawonia”
Such a f*****g place
Such a f*****g waste
Plenty of room at the Hotel Brooklawonia
Any time of year, you can wind up here
Joan’s mind is Tiffany-twisted, she’s got a Mercedes Benz
She got a lot of shifty, shifty tools, that she calls friends
How they dance in the school courtyard, sweet summer sweat.
Some dance to dissemble, someone will cash your check
So I called up the placement office,
Please bring me some jobs with wine [bottle service]
She said, “We haven’t had those spirits here since nineteen ninety nine”
And still those voices are calling from far away,
We threw up in the middle of the night
Just to hear them say…
“Welcome to the Hotel Brooklawonia”
Such a f*****g place
Such a f*****g waste
They’re livin’ it up at the Hotel Brooklawonia
What a nice surprise [after graduation], Joan King has her alibis
Smoke and mirrors at Career Services,
Chin Kee Fatt’s telling lies
And she said “You are all just debt prisoners here, of your own device.”
And in Joan Wexler’s chambers,
They’re gathered for the feast
They stab the real stats with their steely knives,
But they just can’t kill the Beast
Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the life I had before
“Relax,” said Chink Kee Fatt, man
“We are programmed to deceive.”
“You can checkout any time you like,”
“But you can never leave [your debt behind]!”
Woke up quick at about noon
Just thought that I had to be at Hudson soon
I gotta get hired before the day begins
Before the Partner starts bitchin' about his Benz
About to start clickin' and damn near went blind
Young niggaz at the keyboard throwin' up gang signs
Ran in the restroom and grabbed my dick
After slammin' that Starbucks, it was just the right trick
'Cause the Boyz on the Project are always hard
You come talkin' that trash that they ain't always barred
Knowin' nothin' in law but to be legit
Don't ask for my law school, I ain't said shit...
I think it is sort of our fault.
We got so used to the easy money, with little responsibility. The projects would come left and right. The rates would creep up, the hours were all we could handle. We could buy studio coops, go out and party like money was no object.
And now the parties all over. We're competing with laid-off associates with real world attorney experience, fighting for fewer jobs that pay less.
It's like the real estate market. There's a values have gone down, but we think that at some point it'll be like it was during the peak.
I don't know what I'm going to do. Look for a government job in Fargo? But I keep on hearing that it's going to pick up soon... soon... soon.
I don't remember controlling the sub-prime business while on a doc review project. Maybe you should go to D.C. and tell them it's all the fault of the doc reviewers for thinking that becoming attorneys would enable them to have apartments and go to parties.
Who would have thought that going to law school would have allowed one to live in a studio apartment and have health insurance?
People are friggin' blind if they don't see that the ENGLISH LANGUAGE JOBS ARE BEING SHIPPED TO INDIA...
This is so freakin' obvious it is beyond me that anyone would doubt this.
Even a deep recession where everyone is strapped for cash, some litigation projects must still go ahead.
Coincidentally, the one solution for clients, law firms, and agencies to use that cuts labor costs not just a little bit, but basically down to the bone, is to send the projects to India.
Wonder why 90% of the announcements for actual doc review jobs we see being advertised on Craigslist and elsewhere are foreign language jobs?
Because the agencies, firms and clients haven't yet figured out how to ship those jobs to India. And they know that there are lots of attorneys in big US markets who speak Japanese, French, Arabic, Norwegian, Korean, etc. India despite its huge population doesn't have that kind of variety in attorneys.
As I've said before, it's not the jobs you SEE going away overseas, it's the jobs you NEVER HEAR ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE that are the ones you should be worried about.
Wrong again 10:43.
Dude gets mad about the economy and takes his made in America Easton baseball bat to foreign made products. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NWFA6g2x-4
De Novo is crawling with projects. Every single caseroom is occupied. Oh, and they're on E. 42nd Street, not in Mumbai.
They're also quite busy down on broad street.
The pro law lemmings are just plain in denial if not just fucking delusional. They are flat out silly with their bullshit network mantra and their pipe dreams of getting a job in shitlaw which is far worse and more stressful than decent doc review projects.
Yea, network...become a jew or a wealthy connected WASP....Guys have a sex change operation and become a hot white, jew or asain broad. Black folk, without Ivy Obama like pedigree, get race change operations...become wasps or jews. Fat white beyatches...if ur cute, get the gastric bypass surgery. If ur ugly get the face transplant and hope for the best. Then you might have a chance...
Oh, but I forgot, they are laying off ivy types from biglaw.....so that must mean that there really is no jobs for most others.
Layfolk and clients are on to the lawland billable hour scam and they won't be taken in anymore.
Means that there is much less money on the table for the ever growing hordes of legal lemmings being shit out of law schools everywhere.
Law implodes all around us and you legal lemming fools say "get out of more lucrative temping and get a real job at less than half the pay in shitlaw" when there are no jobs and the few that there used to be were not worth the aggravation.
Law is dead for most. Get out while you can.
Although I have a full-time, permanent job at a medium-sized law firm now, that pays well enough for me (80s) and the work isn't that bad or stressful, still, if I had to do it all over again, knowing what I know now about the practice of law, the career opportunities available to me (I had mediocre grades although I attended a Tier One school), and the way the legal job market would be, I would definitely NOT have gone to law school. I would probably have studied something like environmental engineering.
Corporations have gone global and have no loyalty whatsoever to this country or that.
Workers, including white collar workers, need to go global to, and lose all loyalty to a specific country.
The fundamental, underlying, and pervasive problem with law as a profession is that it is not transferable in the global market, UNLESS you are an Indian attorney working on American projects, getting paid dirt.
If you are a well-trained lawyer like most of us, the sad fact is that you simply can't use your friggin' law degree anywhere else in the world except the USA, and even in the USA, you have to qualify for the bars state-by-state.
The American J.D. is probably one of the most non-transferable higher education degrees available anywhere, considering the time, money and effort most people put into attaining it.
In short, the whole deal sucks.
from expressindia.com
79,000 legal outsourcing jobs for India by 2015
Press Trust of India
India has huge potential in legal outsourcing, with the number of jobs in the field increasing to 79,000 by 2015, a study by an American research firm has said.
Though India had earned over $6.7 billion in US-based outsourcing services such as software and call centres till march 2005, the field of legal outsourcing was largely untapped, the study conducted by Forrester said.
The study estimated that jobs in the field which was poised to increase dramatically from about $80 million annually to approximately $4 billion, would grow to 29,000 in 2008, 35,000 by 2010, and 79,000 by 2015.
At present the number of jobs in legal outsourcing in India stood less than 12,000, it said.
Outsourcing would reduce costs for US customers as the rates for Indian legal workers were about 10 to 20 per cent of their American counterparts.
"Indian outsourcing offers the following economic advantages: a significant wage differential with Indian firms report paying legal researchers around $12,000 per year. There are also savings in perks, overhead, and working conditions," the study said adding time zone differences allowed for overnight and 24X7 operations.
So far, the legal services work consisted of paralegal, secretarial, and litigation support. However, according to the financial consulting firm, fulcrum financial inquiry, Indian firms now offered more valuable services, including contract review and monitoring, document review for due diligence, patent drafting, simple filings and legal research.
However, the study said these advantages were not without challenges, but none insurmountable.
The most important challenges to legal outsourcing to India included concerns about data security, conflict of interest rules, and the need for Indian lawyers to pass US bar examinations.
Interestingly, the need for India-based lawyers was being addressed through American law schools and immigration policies.
Legal talent was being schooled in the US, but American education visas allowed these students to stay in the country for only a short time after graduation. Many who studied in the US came back to work for legal outsourcers, the study said.
It said more than 200,000 Indians graduate from law schools each year, five times more than in the US.
Participants in the study included law firms, in-house law departments of multinational firms like GE, Bayer and outsourcers having a legal group.
"Oh, but I forgot, they are laying off ivy types from biglaw.....so that must mean that there really is no jobs for most others."
You're not relly competing with them anyway. A small firm isn't going to hire a biglaw dropout for 50K (nor would the biglaw drop out take it).
It also depends on the practice area. I don't think the bigfirms are laying off bankruptcy guys at the moment. If instead of temping for like the past couple years, you had gotten a job and got some experience, you'd be able to find something at a small/mid-size firm, or you could solo.
Call me a pro-law lemming if you'd like. I wouldn't advise anyone to go to law school, or at least not to a law school outside the top 15 to 25. Most good schools inflate their employment statistics and the gutter schools are ten times worse.
But if you're reading this and bitching about pro-law lemmings, chances are you already made that mistake. That's why I was encouraging people to network.
Whether you believe it or not, there are basically three ways to land a legal job, credentials, experience and networking.
Here's how credentials and experience play out. If a small or medium sized firm posts a want ad on craigslist or on a law school's career board, they'll get a 100 resumes and pick the 5-8 people with the best credentials or most relevant experience to interview. Most people who have been temping for any length of time have shit credentials and worthless document review experience. Even if someone is smart, personable and hard working, they'll never get their foot in the door. On the rare occasion tha they do get an interview, it'll be for a crap job paying a pitance that would target canidates with crap cretentials and crap experience.
The other way to get a job is through networking. Half the people in law school think this is something the career services office made up and refuse to try it. But here in the real world, it's one of the few ways that people with shitty credentials can get good jobs. There's no secret formula here. You have to cast a really wide net and let everyone in your network friends and family know that you're looking for legal work.
Here's a real example of how I've seen networking work in action. My girlfriend's best friend is in law school. My girfriend's parents know that this friend is having a tough time finding a job. My girlfriend's parents are also good friends with a lawyer in Westchester (lawyer #1). At the lawyer #1's wife's 60th birthday party, my girlfriend's parents end up at a table with a different lawyer (lawyer #2). They strike up a conversation with lawyer #2 about my girfriend's friend and how they're so suprised that she's having trouble finding a job, talking about how smart the friend is, how she got a scholarship to her crap school, is always studying, etc. Lawyer #2 isn't hiring, but he has a friend, lawyer #3 who is really busy and was thinking about hiring an associate. In spite of her crap credentials, my gf's friend gets an interview and a job offer from lawyer #3. This sort of thing isn't unusual at all.
So I'll emphasize again, cast a wide net. Ever paly soccer with a kid whose dad was a lawyer? Send the dad an email letting him know you're looking for legal work. Ask if knows anyone who may be hiring. Next time he hears about something, he'll give you a call. Doing this 100 times is going to result in much better results than sending out 100 resumes.
Anti-Semitic, anti-Asian, anti-White hate-filled bigots like 1:34 should not be employed by anyone because they are employment discrimination lawsuits waiting to happen. Hate-mongers like that have no rightful place in the practice of law as they are incapable of keeping the oath they make when they are sworn in. The laws of the U.S. and NY prohibit discrimination and that includes the kind of hostile work environments created by these ignorant bigots. Anyone making such disgusting prejudiced comments in a workplace should be fired immediately. Otherwise a lawsuit against the employer, as defined by law, may be commenced.
Put down Big Titty Kimbo's book. The cast a wide net thing may have worked a couple of years ago, not now. Even the pro-low career counselor set is advising people to get out of the law.
"It said more than 200,000 Indians graduate from law schools each year, five times more than in the US."
This says a lot. They have even more TTT law degrees in India, obviously. But, because these folks have only undergraduate degrees, the use of term "law school" is fraudulent.
There is no comparison. In the US we have three year JDs PLUS undergrad degrees. Indian TTT attorneys have only undergrad degrees and no training in the US.
In other words, it's like 200,000 paralegals graduating every year. No wonder they are so desperate to steal work from Americans. They should stick to their own law, for which they were supposedly trained.
Word to India: Stop breeding so many people! You have too many people to employ anywhere on earth!
Be more like China, control your child birth. You cannot keep having children and expect the USA to keep employing them.
Link for 8:59 comment
http://abajournal.com/news/ex-associate_hit_with_wave_of_negativity_at_session_for_jobless/
9:21
You said:
"This says a lot. They have even more TTT law degrees in India, obviously. But, because these folks have only undergraduate degrees, the use of term "law school" is fraudulent."
This is the single most putrid and mindless piece of bullshit ignorance I have ever seen posted on this blog.
Get your friggin' head out of the sand, will ya?
The fact is that in most of the world, the "law degree" IS an undergraduate degree. Try going to Russia, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, most of Latin America, and even MOST law degrees in the UK. To 90% of the goddamned world, a law degree is what Americans would consider an UNDERGRADUATE degree.
So get your freakin' head out of your ass for a second and take a peep around the REAL WORLD outside of your sick, parochial, US-centric mindset.
Last time I checked, it was the US economy that is tumbling down the shitter into irrelevance. Last time I checked, it was the US subprime crisis that set off the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression.
It's also well-known (and laughable) in the worldwide setting that, apart from science degrees at top schools, MOST American colleges and universities are inferior degree mills.... total crap!
WTF is a BA in Communications from Ohio State, anyway? What is a BS in Psych from Purdue? What is a BA in English from Georgia Tech? What is a BA in Political Science from Louisville?
Total crap, dime-a-dozen "degrees" for spoiled American, beer-guzzling frat kids.
Phony degrees for a phony economy in a phony country.
America is in permanent, steep decline as our car companies and even our newspapers bite the dust. Obama is trying but he's too wedded to a dying system, so even he can't save us.
As Fareed Zakharia said, we have entered the "Post-American Century".
Our fraudulent subprime degrees, fake derivatives, lies, and Barnum & Bailey confidence tricks can't game the rest of the world anymore. They have figured us out.
And by the way, I was not born in the USA, so I am not emotionally invested in this fucking dying system with its phony, flag-waving jingoism.
As I said, the American system requires a JD. Less than this is called the unauthorized practice of law. Why do you sleazebags want to gut the American legal system.
We have enough attorneys in this country without work. Why on earth should we allow this unauthorized competition from foreigners without JDs for our work?
It's crazy and illegal.
If American is done as a world power then it's time for the Indians to start creating their own jobs. We'll need to take back all of our outsourced jobs.
India is so strong now that they don't need Western countries stealing jobs from their citizens and giving them to Indians.
I think it's only fair that for the next 10 years that India and China start exporting their work to us. We've given them so many jobs for nothing, it's time for them to return to favor. They are just so much stronger than us, as the world economic powers, they should help us Americans out.
Their economnies are booming, we are suffering. Give us your jobs and bring ours back home!
Anonymous said...
The idiotic 8:30am poster said..."Anti-Semitic, anti-Asian, anti-White hate-filled bigots like 1:34 should not be employed by anyone because they are employment discrimination lawsuits waiting to happen. Hate-mongers like that have no rightful place in the practice of law as they are incapable of keeping the oath they make when they are sworn in. The laws of the U.S. and NY prohibit discrimination and that includes the kind of hostile work environments created by these ignorant bigots. Anyone making such disgusting prejudiced comments in a workplace should be fired immediately. Otherwise a lawsuit against the employer, as defined by law, may be commenced."......
The fact is is that my 1:34 am post was made because the legal "profession" is virulently racist, elitist and classist. I have seen anti black discrimination, anti-straight white and black working class male discrimination, class discrimination perpetuated by those who control and are favored in the legal profession. Those who are favored and those who control the legal profession are mostly elitist Jews, WASPS and increasingly white and jewish women and their gay allies. Asian and Indian females are favored. Top 14 law school grads are preferred.
Law is a caste system where blacks (with the rare exceptions of Obama types), hispanics, any sort working class straight white or black males are mostly, with rare exeception, are not welcome.
Discrimination is rampant, in many forms, in today's lawland and is not only tolerated, but openly encouraged and effectuated daily.
The racist, classist, elitists (mostly jews and wasps) are systematically thinning the herds of those who are not they through a variety of means including only hiring those who are like them, those who attended top 14 schools and now, shipping all the worth while lower end jobs to India.
Law is a racist and classist vile profession controlled by the most vile and evil people on the planet who are selling their own nation down the river and who scour the world to exploit. The wicked who control lawland break those oaths and so-called anti-discrimination laws, not to mention labor laws daily.
So save your bullshit platitudes about oaths and discrimination suits fool.
A good doc review job beats any shitlaw job by a mile. Why anyone, is informed about the lawland scam, would want to work in dead end shitlaw, if there is good doc review money (which now is gone) to be made is beyond me. There is no moving up in shitlaw, for most. Even in shitlaw...or ESPECIALLY in most NYC shitlaw, for one to have potential to move up....one need be a member of the chosen tribe and or be seriously connected.
And, discrimination, is even more rampant in shitlaw than in biglaw where PC corporate clients kind of sort of try to hold the biglaw firms racist feet to the fire.
In shitlaw the chose ones do what they will with the non chosen and what desperate non chosen tt lemming is going to fight it in this shitty profession? In this shitty economy? Get real.
Can someone please define "shitlaw"?
Isn't shitlaw like, 90% of the legal profession?
It seems to me that biglaw, mediumlaw, and smalllaw are just subsets of shitlaw.
well said.. 10:41 .... many sub-sets..
I do not have a problem with the racist bit at all. I do have a problem with the classist bit. And I am not speaking about academic credentials. Someone with t14 credentials should be looked upon more favorably, provided they were not groomed from an early age to do so.
Why? Because they knew where to seat Sally two seats behind Cindy on a silly logic crossword game?
A question about unemployment benefits. I had to take off just
two days off an assignment because of illness. When I called the agency that I could come back no one responded. Can I claim benefits as lack of work?
EVEN BIG LAW PARTNERS ARE BEING SHITCANNED NOW! Their fellow Partners are finding ways to do this to each other. I heard Clifford Chance vaporized its NY Litigation group Partners and the transactional guys are down to a handful.
WE ARE DOOMED
1:53 AM
<< Workers, including white collar workers, need to go global to, and lose all loyalty to a specific country. >>
Yeah, the only problem with that is the only foreign countries where the job prospects are growing are third world shitholes, so I hope you don't mind living off sticky rice and rat meat, while nursing that black lung and dysentery.
Unless of course, your grand plan of escape involves moving to European socialist paradise, where you will live in immigrant slums amongst Libyans, Yemenis, Pakistanis, and various other terrorists in waiting.
Here is the problem. We are living in the US which is (for now) has the highest standard of living in the world. But the powers that be came up with a genius plan of globalization, which is great in theory, except for the fact that the elites who can take advantage of cheap global workforce don't feel like sharing their spoils with peasants like you and I.
What's the result? The standard of living for American workers will continue to decline until we can become competitive with workers in the developing countries (read: willing to work for $1.25/hour with no benefits).
Greedy corporate assholes will keep raping the country until the general populace flips its shit and turns US into an isolationist country it was prior to WW1.
2:09 - Send them an email saying that you recovered and are eager to return to work. If they don't call back, assume that you were shit-canned, but keep the email as evidence in case they challenge you.
"And by the way, I was not born in the USA, so I am not emotionally invested in this fucking dying system with its phony, flag-waving jingoism."
Good, now get the fuck out.
2:24 - You really believe that the U.S. has the world's highest standard of living? I suggest you travel to Denmark, Sweden or Finland, just to name a few places where the quality of life (and average lifespan) is greater than it is here.
You sound like you need to do a little traveling so you can get some perspective.
According to a lot of data, America has a lower quality of living when compared to several countries.
Indeed, we also do not have the highest productivity or the highest average wages per workers.
We also pay twice as much for our healthcare system but the outcomes for critical diseases (those that are likely to severely impact your life or kill you) significantly worse.
Moreover, our educational system is extremely expense when compared to those abroad.
Even our claims of lower unemployment rates are a sham because of how we manipulate the numbers to not include a) underemployment (what doc reviewers face) and b) those who have given up so they no longer even appear in the stats at all (thus when you see 8.9 percent unemployment, you should realize its significantly higher since they do not count some people who are indeed under or without employment).
We are beat by several social capitalistic democracies. This is compared to the laissez faire capitalistic approch we hear tauted here so much as the best way to do business. But, people prefer to live in the myth of social mobility than the reality that we live worse lives.
I am not trying to be depressing here or claim other countries are perfect. Just keeping it real when one actually researches the numbers. Many of the European countries have their own problems. They have their own myths. Such as higher levels of xenophobia despite their denial. But, the myths we have created about America are getting in the way of us understanding why we find ourselves where we are.
For example, take the present battle over healthcare reform. There is no reason on earth (literally) why we should not have a public healthcare option, and yet, the debate is about how unfair competition would be between a non-profit health insurance provider versus a for profit provider. Remember, all the other systems (some are mixed and include similar proposals to the present public healthcare option) are producing better results at a lower cost. We are anti-rational and dogmatic.
10:29
You've obviously never worked in the small/medium law firm enviornment. Big law and doc. review generally sucks, but there are opportunities in the small/mid-size firms. There's also solo practice which is, despite the complaints, quite profitable.
3:15 PM
I did quite a bit of traveling around the world in my life, thank you for your concern though.
Sweden is being overrun by Muslims who refuse to assimilate, Finland has one of the highest suicide rates per capita, and even if you don't mind those factors, good luck finding a job there.
My point being, as shitty as things are right now domestically, for an average American the prospects outside the country are even worse.
Willkie Farr has been conducting stealth layoffs, and that a big round of public layoffs, affecting 10% of the workforce, may be on the way.
The recent layoffs are said to have targeted senior and mid-level associates in New York City and Washington, DC, who have been given five months notice.
Agreed about outside the USA. It's not exactly a bed of roses. Unemployment in some of the Scandanavian countries is always around 8-10%.
Incidently, there's more want ads for attorneys at the moment. This is a positive trend. It's not where it used to be, but much better than nothing at all.
Also you have to keep the firm's layoffs in perspective. It's a pyramid and they're always laying off people, but usually nobody cares. Of course, at the moment it's worse than usual.
There are a lot of fuckin' projects in NYC right now despite what people say.
I agree though that before you climb into that document review bed of comfort, look outside of law. Anything else would do. Hell, the Peace Corps would be better than this shit, at least it would be interesting and you could hang out with the natives and smoke weed all day.
Yeah the market is picking up. De Novo is practically full from what I hear. There wouldn't have been the posting for the 32 an hour thing to Craig's list if they could fill from their internal rooster. The credit markets are unfreezing, so it stands to reason that there will be more projects. Temp recovers faster than permenant so expect to see more permenant job postings in 4-6 weeks so long as the economy continues to improve.
Now might be the time to start sending out resumes (cover up the temp work especially if long term) and networking. I sure as hell am going to do so.
Well, in DC, responding to the resume farming ads at craigslist, careerbuilder, and monster has not helped me yet. If the agencies really are getting more projects, then they must be filling them from internal rosters. I wonder when they will reach the point where they have to start going outside those rosters.
632, you are wrong about denovo, they are definitely not full
WELL I SURE AS FUCKING HELL WOULD LIVE A RUNDOWN OF THE CURRENT ONGOING NYC DOC REVIEW PROJECTS!. FOR FUCKING ONCE, already, Simple question... SO IF YOU ARE ON PROJECT PLEASE DO TELL> WOULD LOVE TO SEE A STATE OF THE MARKET.
JOB,Agency,where,number of people and pay rate.
REALLY, what they gonna track this and fire you. WHAT THE FUCK I SEE TALK ABOUT JOBS BEING FILLED, but can you tell?
My bad. I heard they were full.
When they send out the emails or post a non-fake project on CL or Car. Builder, it generally means they're out of good temps on their rooster.
My guess would be that at any given time an agency has about 150 regular temps that are in steady rotation, but with the recession it may be higher. The better employees either get a better offer from another agency, leave for a permenant job, or stick with the firm where they are.
My guess would be that it's hard to find people who will consistently work long hours reviewing documents on a long term basis (the average person finds it boring and tends to get into trouble).
In DC, if you inquire with the temp agencies like De Novo, Hudson, Compliance, Solon, LegalSource, HIRECounsel, etc., you always get some enthusiastic staffer who connects you to a recruiter. The recruiter takes your name, asks for your resume, and mumbles something vague about "expecting projects soon"... But they never have anything right NOW.
For the record, people, the word is "PERMANENT", not "PERMENANT".
If you want to move up from "TEMPARERY", I suggest you learn how to spell it.
I am a recruiter. We would love to place everyone right now, but the simple fact remains that we have far more candidates than positions currently available. Things are slowly improving, however.
8:58 PM
Fair enough. Do you have an informed estimate as to when and how much the market will improve? I myself am asking about DC. I realize that you may be just as much in the dark as the rest of us, but if you have any guesses, and reasons for your guesses, I'd like to hear them.
It's never possible to say for sure. Things will undoubtedly pick up in the second half of the year. How much is anybody's guess.
8:05, Where are you getting your info? I'm working there and they are full and packing people in.
The question of what, where,when,who, etc... is fair enough, since we're trained to use evidentiary principles, but I would not put it past anyone to rat, since this profession is filled with snakes (and rats), but lets just say I am on a "long-term" project in NYC.
And to be honest it is heating up; there is a lot of chatter from within the agencies.
Just be patient, get on a project, don't fuck around, and you will be able to ride out the year without being in financial turmoil.
936
well, maybe they are full in the denovo offices, i mean they arent in any desperate need to sign up new reviewers despite the recent craigslist ad. they may be trying to pick up associates that have recently been laid off to provide firms with better candidates.
are you saying you are working at denovo and they keep bringing on new reviewers?
>>Such as higher levels of xenophobia despite their denial
This is rich. Have you even been reading this site?
It's funny how some right wing nut came here to argue that the unemployment is higher abroad after I wrote that this is false The numbers are not higher abroad. We lie to keep the appearance of our unemployment numbers being low domestically, and have been doing so for years.
It's also funny to see someone who is a doc reviewer ignore this considering the regular whine about law schools manipulating their employment numbers. Do you think the law schools came up with this idea on their own?
Finally, it's funny to read the bigotry here. Does that bigotry make you feel better? I guess it does. It's all you got. As this country continues to go down the toilet due to your racism and ignorance (the basis for a lot of what we see are the stupid Reagan Democrats and Republicans who continue to vote out of ignorance), I suppose you will find more scapegoats other than your own complicity in this country's downward slide.
1004
Yes. I do read this site. There is a lot of bigotry here. A lot. There is also A LOT in Europe. The existence of bigotry here does not negate the fact that Europeans cover up their level of bigotry against "outside" groups in Europe. The Muslims that the one bigot here mentions for example have lived in some of these European countries for 2 or 3 generations. Yet, it does not matter. My only point was that I am not pretending Europe is perfect regarding its issues, but that its outcomes economically are better than the US when it comes to quality of life, etc. This was to combat the lie and fantasy, in which Americans like to pretend that we get something out of this Faustian bargain with laissez faire capitalism. We do not get shit other than a lousy standard of living and higher debt.
6:14
Thanks. Every law student I knew smoked weed all day long. Oh, yeah, Joan King tricked you. She's the enemy. If it weren't for that damned Joan King...
After reading EndofEsq.com column on Rainmaking, I thought about qualities that long-term lawyers who are not rainmakers possess. What I mean is a Lawyer who has stayed in this industry, going firm to firm, as a staff attorney, associate, or non-asset partner making a living via this career. With the legal market as saturated, as it is; what qualities do we see that can help us survive the short time we are in this industry:
a) Flexibility: The ability to change specialty. The ability to go from Associate to Doc Reviewer and not cry. The ability not to take this field too seriously.
b) Assertiveness: The ability to push! The ability to ask for what you are worth. Trying to undersell yourself leaves you with a perception of having a “low value” in employer’s eyes.
c) Tenacity: Constant fight to get what you need and want.
d) Optimism: This is tricky! To paraphrase Admiral SCOWCROFT: The POWs who were Optimists were weeded out fast. Unbridled Optimists hope, continue hoping, and furventively believe the best will happen sometimes against all reason. When the worst happens, they are let down; it’s like being hit by an anvil. An unbridled optimism can not deal with the fact things don’t always work.
e) Intelligence (Brains + Common Sense): If you don’t get it; get it.
f) Distancing Ability: The ability to step back and see the situation as if you are not a part of it.
g) Group Conscience: The ability to see what the group sees as true, apart from what the reality is.
h) Go with the flow Assimilation: (enough said).
i) Finding Meaning in Life: There is life outside of work.
j) Courage: The ability to get up every morning and do it all again.
Yours Etc
Screwtape
Posted by The Yuppie Attorney at 4/15/2009 04:33:00 PM 0 comments
Labels: attorney, jobs, rainmaker, survival
You are going to have bigotry on an anonymous blog that discusses employment and economic issues in the middle of a severe recesssion/depression. That's just the way it is. I think most people don't take the racist trolls seriously.
Your posts are too long!!!
Stop it. Our eyes glaze over when the post is half a page long!!! This is why you don't have jobs. You just ramble on!!!
Keep your vitriol concise and to the point, or your post will not be read!!!
10:21
Nice post.
Things are slowly getting better.
Being unemployed sucks and the NYC market is and has been oversaturated for some time, but you just have to keep plugging away and not give up.
Everybody is feeling the squeeze, from the solos who's clients are shorting them to the partners taking pay cuts at the big firms to the doc. reviews having to work for lower salaries under unpleasent conditions. However, the tide is starting to turn.
If you don't like doc. review, make the effort to get out of it and find something better. The economics of doc. review are working against you. The money goes from the client through two or more intermediaries who take a cut before it gets to you.
Sooner or later an opportunity will present itself, but you must make an effort.
I am Babu. I greatly resent the stupidity on this blog. It is very unnecessary. I am sitting in a room on the 11th floor of our building filled with 400 young attorneys and we are clicking away. How can we review documents with all these distractions happening? All these distractions create much suffering. Even the attorneys in the large rooms on the 10 floors below us, working on other document review can be heard up here, complaining about your blog. I don't know if all the other document review attorneys sitting in the eight other buildings in this office park, who are also clicking away, are reading your blog but I hope not. They will be very distracted. It is like noise pollution to hear all these comments.
Day Pitney, which laid off 66 staff members across it offices in February, today announced that 20 lawyers have been laid off, and incoming associates will be deferred to January 2010.
From the memo:
"Earlier today, we met with 20 associates and counsel to notify them that their positions are being eliminated. The reductions are spread throughout our offices and practice areas… Each person has been offered a severance package that includes outplacement services…
…we have moved the start date for our incoming associates to January 5, 2010. We will be providing each member of our incoming class a weekly stipend from September 15 through December 31, 2009 and are encouraging each of them to participate in available public interest opportunities.
The amount of the deferral stipend has not been announced."
Headquartered in Hartford, Connecticut and Florham Park, New Jersey, Day Pitney employs 382 attorneys spread across nine offices in four states and the District of Columbia. In 2007, Day Pitney ranked 113th on the National Law Journal’s list of the 250 largest American law firms.
I have another interview this week, and I suspect an offer in the pipeline.
So keep sending out resumes and networking. You never know what you'll find. There are jobs out there, maybe they don't pay as much as doc. review, but they pay off a year or two down the line.
You guys gotta quit being so pessamistic. Quit stressing about your loans and how much associates are makeing, mellow out some, and go with the flow. Life's a lot easier that way.
I just can't do temp work. they treat us like shit and give us work that makes me want to scratch my eyes out.
We'll see how long my pride pays the bills though...
I need a sugar spouse.
One upshot of this recession will be that the whole traditional model of biglaw firms hiring a class of new associates every year will be scrapped permanently. They will only hire as necessary to replace attrition.
Here is more on the wonderful living standards in India....From the WSJ.com
Megacities Threaten to Choke India .By PATRICK BARTA and KRISHNA POKHAREL
LUCKNOW, India -- Voting is drawing to a close Wednesday in India's largest election ever, and a slowing economy, terrorism and the rural poor have been front and center in the campaign. But of growing concern are the country's teeming new megacities, which are swelling rapidly even as jobs dry up and funding for infrastructure disappears.
One of India's Crumbling Utopias
Known for its baroque monuments and lush gardens, Lucknow could face the same fate as Mumbai and Kolkata, which became synonymous with poverty and decay in the 1970s and 1980s.
This capital of the northern state of Uttar Pradesh was once an orderly place known for its baroque monuments and lush gardens. Today, Lucknow has more than 780 slums, overflowing sewage pipes and streets choked by gridlock. Its population of 2.7 million, nearly triple the number in the 1980s, is adding as many as 150,000 new residents a year.
Shami Shafi, a 35-year-old laborer in Lucknow, has seen his daily income drop by half in recent months to 50 rupees, or about $1, for carrying bags of potatoes and other goods in a local market. But "I'm not going back to my village," he says. If work gets harder to find, "I'll just go to another city."
Across India, poor migrants keep streaming into cities like Lucknow, many of which are woefully mismanaged and ill-equipped to handle the influx. India has at least 41 cities with more than one million people, up from 23 two decades ago. A half dozen others will soon join the megacity list. Urban experts say the risk is now rising that some of these cities could face the same fate as Mumbai and Calcutta, which became synonymous with poverty and decay in the 1970s and 1980s.
Indian politics has long been dominated by rural constituencies -- 70% of the population still lives in the countryside. But urban voters are seen by candidates as increasingly crucial. Both of the main political parties have tried to capitalize on rising urban discontent by promising to deliver more spending on power, roads and other infrastructure.
India's Megacities Outpace Urban Planners
2:25
Although city planners have tried to learn from Calcutta and Mumbai's untamed sprawl, they haven't been able to manage the growth in Lucknow, which suffers from over-crowding and weak infrastructure. Patrick Barta reports from India.
.There is "no doubt that India's future is in the cities," says M. Ramachandran, secretary at India's Ministry of Urban Development.
What's happening in India is part of a world-wide challenge. Megacities are sprouting around the globe. But in billion-person India, the trend is on steroids.
The country already has 25 of the world's 100-fastest growing urban areas, according to City Mayors, an international urban-affairs think tank. That compares with eight in China. Pune, near Mumbai, has more than four million people, about the same as the Houston area. Kanpur, in north central India, has more than three million, as does Surat, in western India. India is expected to add 10 million people a year between 2000 and 2030 to its 5,161 cities, according to the United Nations.
If India fails to get a handle on its new urban areas, it could be saddled with more bottlenecks and inefficiencies that could doom the country to years of subpar growth, says Dharmakirti Joshi, an economist at Mumbai ratings agency Crisil. India's gross domestic product has been growing faster than that of most other developing countries, averaging 8.8% a year in the past five years, according to the International Monetary Fund. But economists say inadequate roads, electricity and other infrastructure shave one to two percentage points off growth each year.
View Interactive
.India's New Megacities Face Pressure
See population growth rates and profiles of some of India's fastest-growing cities.
.Officials have taken some steps to improve things. The Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission was launched in 2005 by the national government to help more than 60 major cities by spending $10 billion to upgrade sewers, water supply, roads and other necessities. But that falls far short of the $52 billion the government estimates it will take to fix India's urban infrastructure.
Lucknow offers a case study of the challenges India's newer metropolises face. The city is famous as a center of high culture dating to the 1700s and 1800s, when it was ruled by a group of extravagant Persian noblemen known as nawabs. They built giant pleasure gardens and baroque monuments, some of which remain, and they left a legacy of courtly manners, poetry and fine cuisine.
The city has changed dramatically in recent years. As the capital of Uttar Pradesh, India's most-populous state, Lucknow has attracted hundreds of thousands of migrants from rural areas, swelling the city's population. Yet the city hasn't completed any major new sewage infrastructure since before the country won independence in 1947. As much as 70% of residents don't have sewage service, leaving much of the waste to flow directly into the main river, the Gomti, which has become a stinking cesspool.
Traffic has overwhelmed downtown streets, and trash collection is inadequate. Much of Lucknow's rubbish is left to rot in piles or strewn about in residential neighborhoods.
"I just see the city crumbling every year," says Mr. Joshi, the Mumbai economist. "It used to be a beautiful city."
The number of slums in Lucknow has quintupled since the early 1970s, according to the Vigyan Foundation, a social-advocacy group in Lucknow. As many as one million people are living without proper sanitation, water supplies or other services, according to social activists. Many of the slums are located along railway beds or in flood plains, exposing residents to floods and other dangers.
In one of the slums, a community called Azad Nagar, nearly 1,000 residents live in handmade thatch huts with packed mud floors and roofs held in place by trash and rag piles. Monsoon floods washed away much of the slum last year, but it was quickly rebuilt. Residents say cholera killed one child and snakes got another.
More
WSJ.com/India: News, columns, more
Set your home page to india.wsj.com
."At least it's better than in the village," says Shanti Kashyap, a 32-year-old mother of four who moved there from a rural town about 70 miles away. "In the village, you work all day long in the field and don't even get two meals." Now her husband works as a wall painter, earning about 100 rupees, or $2, a day.
Of course, slums have always existed in Indian cities, including in Lucknow. But many advocates hoped India's modernization would reverse slums' growth. Instead, the opposite appears to be happening.
Part of the problem: Lucknow, like many Indian cities, is managed by a bewildering array of government bodies that don't always coordinate activities. In theory, Lucknow is led by an elected mayor and 110-member Municipal Corporation, similar to a U.S. city council. Together, they share oversight of basic services such as water, housing and roads. But in practice, the elected officials' authority is sharply limited by the half-dozen or more other government bodies that wield power in town.
Chief among them is the Lucknow Development Authority, a group of unelected bureaucrats who have the authority to develop new housing projects and roads within them. But after a few years, when the developments are completed, the LDA hands over management of the projects to the Municipal Corporation, which doesn't always have enough money to maintain basic services such as water, sewage and street lights.
The result is dysfunctional government, says U.B. Singh, an urban-studies professor at the University of Lucknow. The mayor has the power to authorize the building of new roads, but not new bridges -- a big problem in a city that flanks a river and is crisscrossed by canals. Despite rapidly falling water tables, there is no single authority empowered to determine when and where residents can drill wells. Private citizens regularly take matters into their own hands and drill for water themselves, further depleting the resources.
"There is no concept of city planning, and what does exist only exists on paper," Mr. Singh says. "Planning has totally failed here."
The mayor and a senior official at the Lucknow Development Authority say they're doing the best they can to follow sound planning guidelines and address residents' concerns. But they say the city is growing so fast that it's hard to keep up. Mukesh Kumar Meshram, vice chairman of the LDA, says the authority is adding thousands of housing units each year.
But, he says, "obviously the gap is always there. That's why the slums are being created -- whenever people find open space, they go."
Lucknow does have a master plan, drafted by a team of 30 government staffers and finished in 2005. But its primary architect, a state planner named Satyavir Singh Dalal, says that master plans are routinely ignored by developers and politicians who start new projects wherever they please.
"We have to make a lot of compromises," Mr. Dalal says. In some cases, he says, leaders follow planners' recommendations but take years or decades to get the work done. An earlier master plan in 1992 called for a new ring road to ease the city's traffic woes; it is only now nearing completion 17 years later.
Another big problem is lack of money. Mayor Dinesh Sharma, a university professor, says his annual budget is $139 million. Some similar-size cities in the U.S. have budgets in the billions. He says his administration is focusing on projects it can control, such as an $800,000 program that involves rounding up stray dogs, monkeys and other animals and depositing them at a ranch called "Krishna's Garden."
The national Urban Renewal Mission project has helped by allocating roughly $150 million to Lucknow for sewage, wastewater treatment and other improvements. City and state officials say the sewage projects, which could be finished later this year, should cover most if not all of Lucknow's wastewater treatment needs. Mr. Dalal, the state planner, says that's unlikely. By his reckoning, about 30% of the city still won't have service after the improvements.
Either way, the money is far short of the more than $960 million Lucknow needs to spend on roads, water and other projects, according to Feedback Ventures, a New Delhi-based infrastructure consulting firm that helped prepare a development plan for the city in 2006.
Some advocates for the poor argue that money is available; it's just not being spent well. Urvashi Sharma, a local activist, says the Uttar Pradesh state government has allocated huge sums on projects of limited social value, including a $90 million monument being built to honor political leaders near the Gomti River. It involves a massive domed monolith and public meeting area stretching over several city blocks, with a statue of Uttar Pradesh chief minister Kumari Mayawati across the street and a gallery of giant stone elephants, her political party's symbol. Navneet Sehgal, the state's secretary of urban development, says the project is an economic stimulus and has created jobs.
Meanwhile, people continue coming. They include Ramesh Kumar, a man in his 40s who one recent morning was resting in the shade of 100-year-old Hindu temple where day laborers gather each day to wait for jobs.
Mr. Kumar had come to Lucknow from a small village eight days before, leaving his wife and four children behind. He hadn't found work yet. He tried lowering his daily price from 100 rupees to 80 and then 60, without luck. Like many of the workers around him, he was sleeping on the ground by the temple.
Living in the city may not be working out well so far. But then again, says Mr. Kumar, "we don't have anywhere else to go."
—Peter Wonacott contributed to this article.
Write to Patrick Barta at patrick.barta@wsj.com and Krishna Pokharel at krishna.pokharel@wsj.com
EXCELLENT ALTERNATIVE OPPORTUNITY for recent females graduates:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/strategist/2009/05/this-jds-alternative-career-got-a-little-too-alternative.html
That's the problem when these countries try to modernize. The same thing is happening in China. The cities are modernized from the top down, and the millions of destitute country peasants are ignored.
The same thing is happening at TTT law schools. The deans think that if they throw tons of money and the best job opportunities at the top 5% of students that opportunities will trickle down to the rest of the class.
12:34
Lucknow, India has more than 780 slums?
Hmmm.... sounds a lot like LA.
California sounds a lot like India.
If laissez faire capitalism continues to rule American political thought California will look like slums
California already is a slum. Outside a few gated communities, the place is absolutely broke and a poverty ridden hell hole.
I am comparing it to the developing world slums and the race to the bottom we are facing domestically due to laissez faire economic policies such as a lack of a national healthcare system, over priced educational costs, wage deflation and trade agreements that do not favor us.
California is one million times better than these filthy Indian slums. Have you slumdogs ever been to California?
India is a festering, overcrowded open sewer. California is far cleaner and better. There is not even a comparison to be made.
You speak from ignorance, as usual.
Stockton is a shanty town. SF is riddled with aggressive bums, LA is a segregated war zone.
stop posting entire news articles, its fucking stupid. just post a link.
Yes, California is a festering slum and a war zone.
Now stay the hell out of our state, fucking TTT-Okies.
Does this prove that not all firms and agencies are outsourcing to India?
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/lgl/1169114333.html
Turkish and HINDI speaking attorneys required for doc review at a downtown DC firm??? WTF??
If it's so easy to outsource to India and costs so little, this firm doesn't even trust attorneys in India to review documents in Hindi, the country's principal language?
4:33
It's a bullshit harvesting ad. There is no project. A temp agency is just collecting resumes with multilingual people.
For all you know they are just going down the Wikipedia list of foreign languages spoken throughout the world.
4:43
How do you know it's a fake resume-trawling ad?
Or is it just your overwhelming cynicism that causes you to say that? Because the ad says "long term project".
Of course it could be fake, but I don't think so. Some ads have to be real.
It's funny how on this blog anyone who posts anything even remotely positive is shut down by the hardened cynics within 3 minutes.
All you have to do is be positive, positive, positive. And of course network, network, network.
2 weeks ago I had 4 interviews for real attorney employment: 2 commercial lit firms, a solo, and an immigration firm. Out of that I got an offer from the commercial lit firm and the solo. Feeling wanted feels great. The solo pays shit and the commercial lit slightly better, but it's real work. I'm taking the commercial lit.
On top of that, I got a call for a project that has decent hours, so that I can make some dough before I start my new career helping deadbeats refinance. Hurray!!!
So don't get all down on yourself and others. This could be you if you stay positive, positive, positive. And don't forget to wear your shortest skirt and blow him like you mean it. You just might get a job out of it.
About staying positive and networking:
There's a phrase "necessary, but not sufficient." It's important to remember that. There are tons of critics out there who complain that networking never works for them. That's right, most of the time it doesn't work. But it's still necessary to do it.
Think of it this way, in order to win the lottery, you have to purchase a lottery ticket. But simply buying the ticket won't ensure you win it. Buying the ticket is necessary, but not sufficient. Networking is the same thing.
networking = lottery
every once in a while someone will get a shitty job out of it but most people just waste time, money, and effort doing it..not too mention dignity though i think we're all beyond that at this point
No, it's more like this -
blindly answering ads = lottery with odds stacked 100,000:1
answering ads plus networking = lottery with odds stacked 1,000:1
Any effort to get a job, unless it's an inside hookup, is a lottery.
Networking just improves your odds. Since the job market right now is crap, networking improves your odds from incredibly shitty to just shitty.
I'll take the shitty odds I get with networking.
Agree about networking. The stats show that it results in about 30 percent of jobs that people obtain in the job market. So, it increases your chances in the so-called hidden job market, but it's not a guarantee. The problem here is that a lot of people want certainty. If I put X hours into networking, then I am going to get what I want. It does not work that way. Nor does it mean you are going to get shitty jobs. Again, it will be determined by the odds. Of course,the question is also- shitty compared to what?
unless you let it dribble on your titties
Man, I am glad I went to law school.
No way Europe has more bigotry than the US. The US is a cesspool of bigotry, though political correctness tempers more vocal demonstrations of it. But whitey's inner monologue and his implicit actions have not change a whit. He is still gutter-filthy, corrupt, lascivious, racist and criminal.
Europe is also more civilized. Americans in general are fat ignoramuses fed on high fructose corn syrup who know nothing beyond the shopping mall a few blocks down and their vapid celebrity culture. The only crumbs of high culture ever produced in America with world-wide reach (like Jazz) comes from African Americans.
America= DECLINE
re: 9:22
Someone finally got it!
9:41 - thank you for telling the truth to these people.
Since I travel to Europe a lot one thing that is embedded in my mind now is that America is a country of fat, ugly, self-centered fucks, for whom lying, cheating, and hypocrisies are not just occasional slip-ups, but the way they live their lives.
It's amazing we voted in Obama... but look how bad things had to become for racist American white fucks (I am white, btw) to vote for a black man.... we had to be driven to the economic precipice b4 it could happen.
If America goes down the cesspool of history, I will not be surprised... I will be living in Europe... yes, with the Libyans and Yemenis, ok, but also with a better standard of living, less greed, free healthcare, and happier, more tolerant people.
Great, those of you that hate our country contribute nothing to our rich culture. You are sad, losers.
Please leave country, ASAP, we don't want you here. I'm sure, however, lowbrow slobs like you won't be welcome in Europe either.
"every once in a while someone will get a shitty job out of it [networking] but most people just waste time, money, and effort doing it."
So show everybody how smart you are and don't network or send out resumes.
I am not going to get on the which countries are more or less bigotted train. The point I was making about bigotry in European country is not whether it was more or less, but whether they perceive or accept the fact they are bigotted.
There is a disconnect between how Europeans view themselves, and how they treat those who live in the various countries who happen to be from other parts of the world like Africa and the Middle East.
This does not condone the bigotry that you find in the U.S. It does not condone our stupidity when it comes to laissez faire capitalism. On the scale of how to properly see capitalism, the Europeans get it right more than we do. Namely, they understand the strengths AND the weaknesses of capitalism. They treat capitalism like a human endeavor. Here, we treat capitalism like its a god.
My only point is that European countries, despite their strength, are not perfect. As a person of color, my reception in some European countries is not going to go as well as others. Spain comes to mind.
10:59
No, I'm going to network. I am going to start popping into NY Bar Association Ice Cream Socials and talk up my years of doc review and show them what I have to offer. I figure there is a 1,000 to 1 chance they wont call security.
I'm a German who works in the States. America is a mixed bag but you cannot overlook the large amount of accepted bigotry and antiquated, backwards race relations that exist in America today. While bigoty, unspoken or not, exists everywhere, it is much deeper engrained and far more acceptable in American society than it is in Europe. Patriotic propaganda and the nationalist attitudes of many Americans are strikingly similar to those of the Nazis. Yes, you didn't systematically kill 6 million jews but you still run a Nazi-esque propaganda machine in this country, especially in the Southern states.
1148
You think you must discuss what you do during the day?
I worked with a few organizations for the last year that may or may not help me with my career.
Not one of them has a clue what I do during the day other than I am an attorney. I never bring up the details, and, surprisingly, neither do they.
They know two things: a) I am a likeable guy (heard this on a few occasions now); and b) On the organization projects that I lead, I seem like a capable leader, and, on those that I do not, I seem like someone who performs whatever task I am asked to do.
Will this help me find work? Who knows. But, I do know that saying you have to announce "I am a doc reviewer" when you network is a load of crap.
1214
Simple question to illustrate my point about Europe: When do you envision France or Germany electing a person of color as leader of the government?
Let me know when that happens, and we will discuss how Europe does not have some deep seated issues with race.
This is not, again, to justify Americas issue. America is truly fucked on race, gender and a multitude of other class categories. My point is that its silly to pretend Europe is some kind of Shangri La. I prefer the economic structure of Europe, but even that is not perfect. I prefer it because it treats the economy like its made up of humans rather than some God-like other worldly force that can never do wrong. The voters there, at least, economically vote their interest.
Here in America, we vote over personality and bullshit hot-button issues that cover up the corporate power structure.
Yes, Virginia, De Novo is filled to capacity with projects. Their midtown location has four small case rooms and one giant case room: Each one is filled with doc reviewers, and they periodically new ones are arriving.
Sullivan & Cromwell has laid off between 15 and 20 associates at its New York HQ.
The firm cites performance reasons for the layoffs, which took place mostly in February. Affected associates received two months severance.
In December, S&C cut associate salaries but promised to revisit the situation in April.
As of 2006, it was the 15th largest law firm in the world.
According to online sources, the number of associate layoffs at Sullivan & Cromwell’s New York office has hit at least 30. The firm may intend to cut 10% of NYC associates overall, for a total of up to 50.
12:14
Yeah, and Germany's doing so well accepting and integrating its Turkish population. Riiiight.
11:48
That's precisly why you have been doing "years of doc. review."
If you want a job, you A) have to network and B) settle for less than what you're making as a doc. reviewer for a year or so.
Every competent career advisor will tell you to avoid legal temp no matter what. And they're correct.
It's supply and demand -- when you have experience the supply of attorneys who can do it is much smaller and you become more valuable rapidly. And don't worry about the salary -- it will increase soon enough. You can also solo or temp/solo once you know what you're doing.
12:15
I think it will. You may also want to pick particular organizations directly associated with your career. Also, I don't think that mentioning that you're doing doc. review is necessaraly a bad thing when you're networking and looking for a job. I just don't think you should send out the typical doc. reviewer resume listing 5 firms and all the different doc. review projects at said firms.
There's nothing wrong with working as a contract attorney while you're looking for something. The problem arises when people temp as a career and avoid taking permenant positions because it's "shitlaw" and they're too good to work for that salary.
Its a shame that S&C would fire the worst performing associates and keep a turd like Alex Gayllard.
127
I think its smarter to not mention that I do doc reviews. There is no chance of it being a hinderance if I don't mention it. People will judge me on what I do on the organizational projects rather than my resume. We shall see.
No peson of color should ever be elected in Europe because European nations are NOT immigrant nations, as this country is. European peoples have a right and an obligation remain heterogenuous. Not only should no "person of color" be elected there, they ought not be allowed to live there. Hopefully this economic collapse will foster the sort of sentiment we saw in the 1930s. Stay tuned!
An now the random racist chimes in.
9:34
you're a dik.
The ABA and FTC should pay attention to the misleading practices of the temp agencies such as Clutch and Yorkson. Sending out deceptive emails regarding pseudo document reviews is damaging to our psychological states and should be stopped. The practice of blacklisting people by Update could make a person suicidal.
Why is it racist to want to presever my own people. Woudl you say it is racist for Tibetans not to want mass infusion of tethnic outsiders (like the Chinese), or how about Japan remaining Japanese.
Sorry but your knee jerk cries of "racist" do not work with me.
12:04 - "preserve your own people"??? That kind of mentality is dangerous and laden with group thinking. How about viewing yourself and others as individuals? None of us chose our heritage or the country where we were born.
"Nationalism (and clinging to your ethnicity) is an infantile disease. It's the measles of mankind." - Einstein
2009 is the year it all breaks. The lemmings are taking the bar now and in a couple months they'll be pounding the pavement looking for jobs that don't exist. All there is for non Ivy league grads is gutter-sucking shitlaw craigslist jobs paying under 40 K. Doc review is dead and the few gigs that are left go to ass kissers who've been in this racket for years. Update and De Novo won't even register anyone nowadays without at least a year of doc review under their belt already.
It's over.
I can relate to this seriously as I am getting close to the end of the line myself. Cannot even get temp work and 3 weeks ago my husband was also laid off. We have 3 children, one who is supposed to be starting college this summer and I dont know if we will even have a house to live in by then in all honesty. When I think about how I busted my ass to get through law school and pass the bars and here I sit watching everything I ever worked for be taken away one by one..I dont have much will to live left. Its sad but I have sent out so many fucking resumes and not even a phone call..NOTHING...Its very depressing. I had to make an appt to go see a therapist tomorrow...This is why my dream life as a lawyer has become!!
3:04
Look on the bright side. At least you have company for your misery.
And what an extensive and diverse company it is! And it grows every year too!
3:04
Take some time tonight and have a couple glasses of wine with your husband in front of your fireplace. If you don't have a fireplace, I suggest using throwing your degrees in the trash can and burning them. At least you'll feel like they have some worth. Look at some photo albums of your children when they were younger. That should help a bit -- it does for me.
very true 3:04...Im sure I have plenty of company. However that doesnt make me feel much better at this point. I cant even get a fucking non-legal job for which I am grossly overqualified,..I have never had a problem getting a job in my life. This is something very new to me and extremely demoralizing...I can see many suicides coming and not just lawyers either...If not for my children after 5 months of sitting here pounding the pavement and coming up with nothing, I would not be here right now..They are the only thing keeping me alive at this point...
3:53 yes I will have some wine..I will skip the husband part however as he just aggravates me and the fact I am stuck home with him 24/7 is like my worst nightmare come true UGH!!! I am thinking a stint in the psych ward sounds pretty relaxing right about now :)
That a leftist JEW such as Einstein seeks to remove tribalism from the European soul is no surprise. Schutzt die Heimat vor Fremden Fahnen!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4592HkshBIw
5:15 - whatever dude. the root of your racism is self loathing
Learn that ad hominem attack from the multi culti mousketeers after they drone on about MLK?
you have some serious issues and you know it
My views threaten you and your worldview so you restory to baseless personal attacks. This means you lose.
you sound like someone who could end up in an insane asylum. get help before it's too late
More cheap shots that deflect from the issues. . ..
Above the Ruins- Progress
All the same height and all the same weight
All the same voice and much the same shape
Pressed to a pattern and shoved into a line
Bled by the rich and led by the blind
Progress, progress, there's progress (x 2)
Such is the joining of people to state
The state is the father, the mother and mate
It knows how you think, it says what you need
With total conviction it prints what you read
Progress, progress, there's progress (x 2)
Mongrelise, centralise, kept to your place
All the same colour and all the same race
Freedom is freedom from dissident views
Eyes full of terror and authorised news
Progress, progress, there's progress (x 2)
It's best to be humble and do as you're told
To speak as you're taught and die when you're old
For such is the meaning of Marx and his words
Wine for the reds and chains for the herd
And death to the swine who are killed good and red
And death to the swine who are killed good and red
Progress, progress, there's progress (repeated to end of song)
And you get a life and we go to hell
And this is the way, welcome to hell (repeated to end as interwoven chant)
It's just Anakin, the resident neo- Nazi apologist of JDUnderground.
Just Anakin? You state that as if that is no big deal. The point of fact is I have continualy uttered inconvenient truths that shake your worldview, revealing the man behind the curtain.
I'm at the end of my rope... I've got kids and school and a stay at home wife, a mortgage, and my own school loans to pay from Touro Law School. When I got into Touro I thought it was the greatest day in my life. I thought the doors were opened. But not even have doors closed in my face. I can't even get that far. I have sent out thousand of resumes and only got a couple of short doc reviews from the agencies at Viacom and Newark Pharma. For the slightest infraction, they fired us. I was out and blacklisted. How could I have gone so wrong.... I feel the whole world is miserable and like I am halfway in quicksand.
I feel your pain 3:44 and so do many others. I bought the idea I would be actually able to practice law. I cannot get an interview either and not even a temp assignment. It all really sucks as I have no choice but to sit and watch as I lose everything I worked my entire life for. I have tried getting non legal jobs as well and it has been a dead end. All my work in law school..deans list..etc ...all for nothing...what a crock of shit this profession is..
I can understand why people would consider ending it all. Is this what life is about? What about all the time, money, and false dreams? How many people have thrown their lifes away due to Joan King and Camille's fraud.
Your trusted, comprehensive resource for locating lawyers and law firms nationwide that can help you with all your legal issues. Search more than 500,000 lawyer listings by geographic location and areas of expertise such as DUI, Divorce, Personal Injury, Criminal Law and More. Use our extensive Attorney Directory database to find an experienced Professional Fast.
tmoriss8
[url=http://www.legalx.net]find lawyer[/url]
our trusted, comprehensive resource for locating lawyers and law firms nationwide that can help you with all your legal issues. Search more than 500,000 lawyer listings by geographic location and areas of expertise such as DUI, Divorce, Personal Injury, Criminal Law and More. Use our extensive Attorney Directory database to find an experienced Professional Fast.
tmoriss8
[url=http://www.legalx.net]find lawyer[/url]
Wonderful blog & good post.Its really helpful for me, awaiting for more new post. Keep Blogging!
Classifieds Ad Poster
Post a Comment