Monday, February 02, 2009

Race To The Bottom

"James Jones, managing director of Hildebrandt International, also talked about the need to change associate compensation in a talk he gave last week. He predicted that the law firm business model will change to include a shift to more contract and temp lawyers and fewer full-time partners and associates."

http://www.abajournal.com/news/how_some_big_law_firms_erred_in_the_boom_years/

Looks like this blog won't become an anachronism after all. While they outsource our jobs to India and push us out of the profession, they are also planning on transforming the future ranks of full time associates into temps.

113 comments:

Anonymous said...

Crash and burn baby, crash and burn! However, it is unlikely to lead to many former doc reviewers. They will just hire the Ivy League grads as temps, ROFL.

What a joke! This profession is full of anal retentive prestige whores, with no business sense. Just like every other group of greedy baby boomers, the law firms are being run into the ground, because the partners' insatiable need for wealth and status.

I hope we see a lot more law firms crash and burn. Then maybe they can start-up entire law firms full of untrained, non-native English speaking foreign "attorneys" that strip the associates and partners of their work.

Hell, why do we need ANY American attorneys? Let's outsource the entire profession! They are all a bunch of jerks anyway. ROFL.

Anonymous said...

I saw this article as a good thing for us. By decreasaing the percentage of people who are perms, they increase the incentive to restructure our position as either a) a trade association or b) a union. Part of the issue right now is the illusion that it's about qualifications like the right pedigree, grades and big firm experience. When that's out the door, then what's left of their argument? Nothing so far as I can tell. That's a boon for changing the way we are a) treated and b) compensated.

Anonymous said...

What they don't get is that they are about 3 seconds away from being outsourced themselves. With very limited exceptions, almost the entire profession can be outsourced. Thank you ABA. Thanks also to the posselist for its fake reporting praising the outsourced doc review. (Well, after all, they know who has the $$$.) Thanks also to the last democratic administration, which was very big on outsourcing (manufacturing jobs) while taking campaign $$$ from the outsourcers. They called that being a New Democrat didn't they?

Anonymous said...

I read it differently. What they are talking about is unhooking perm associates and making them contract attorneys. This will open up their work to be outsourced. It will also us drive down even further on the food chain.

Remember, we are the bottom dwelling dwarves, stuck in the bottom of the well. They would rather send the work to a foreign, non-native non-english speaking country than give it to us, American citizens. There is no upward mobility for us, nor will there be.

They are just talking about making alot more, better qualified attorneys subject to the same horrors as us. MORE work will be sent offshore and the Ivy Grads will be scrapping for contract work.

We have to understand, the law as a profession is melting away before our eyes. We keep waiting for a positive sign, a comeback. How long can you hold out before it is clear that we are in permanent decline?

These idiot baby boomers have ruined the profession for all of us, just like they did with the banks andthe government.

Anonymous said...

Again- I do not see how this is not a good thing for us. The core argument has been that the statification in our industry is about qualifications. With that argument out of the window, what do they have left?

Anonymous said...

They are not throwing out qualifications! They are just ramming associates farther down the totem pole. It will still be required to have a T14 degree for these jobs.

There will be a few real associates, some staff and then a huge group temps, most of which will have T14 degrees. Peidgree will always be important for these prestige whores.

This will only hasten the closure of TTT law schools. Imagine going to T14 and getting a contract position, absurd. Forget about the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier. You have better odds in online poker!

We are witness the collapse of this industry.

Anonymous said...

Yes 12:52 sending our jobs away is a great thing for us. What a great victory being jobless is for us. BTW what do we have left?

Anonymous said...

Not to mention this will increase outsourcing of associate work.

Friend said...

See the similar Citibank-Hildebrandt law firm client advisory:

http://www.hildebrandt.com/PublicDocs/CLIENT_ADVISORY/2009_Client_Advisory.pdf

Friend said...

Sorry.

http://www.hildebrandt.com/
PublicDocs/CLIENT_ADVISORY/
2009_Client_Advisory.pdf

Anonymous said...

Thanks also to the last democratic administration, which was very big on outsourcing (manufacturing jobs) while taking campaign $$$ from the outsourcers. They called that being a New Democrat didn't they?

No, they called it believing in capitalism and comparative advantage, which, if I remember correctly, are principles supported by every conservative and libertarian in this country. Reconsidering now?

Anonymous said...

They are totally destroying the concept of qualification. Now your point is "accurate" if everyone goes always with the redefinition.

Anonymous said...

The entire profession will be outsourced to one guy named Rajiv sitting in a hut in Bhopal.

Anonymous said...

No 2:13 they called it being a New Democrat. You can look it up.

Anonymous said...

130 & 131

FASCINATING!!!!

This is what i have been waiting for. I wanted real facts and figures.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
No 2:13 they called it being a New Democrat. You can look it up.
___________________________________

Look what up? The principles behind outsourcing, and who has implemented and supported those principles? I don't have to look that up, and neither should any literate adult who has been awake for the past 30 years.

Anonymous said...

with fewer associate positions, those who would have become or formerly were associates will suck up any of the doc review positions. The lower end of the curve will be squeezed out of the market.

Anonymous said...

The doc review will be outsourced. What they're talking about is substantive work being performed by contract attorneys. It's just a less controversial way of saying "outsourced".


Hahahahahhaahhaahha.

Anonymous said...

Sounds good to me. Makes sense. The supermarkets hire only part-time to avoid having workers in the union. It is a similar shift here.

Anonymous said...

is anybody actually receiving private student loans to attend tier 2 law schools these days?

Anonymous said...

3:16 you are either uninflormed or dishonest. The Clinton administration was very much in favor of outsourcing. They called it being a New (pro business) Democrat. They raised lots of campaign money for themselves that way.

Anonymous said...

Uninformed or dishonest that is

Anonymous said...

It's not which party believed in outsourcing and which didn't. Both did. The democrats supported it big time and the republicans supported it even more. Even Obama, though he is in principle probably against most outsourcing, most likely will not make it his #1 issue or anywhere near that. There are only a small handful in Congress (mostly hardcore liberal dems) who have made it a signature issue, but always get voted down even when there's a democratic majority.

Oh and by the way, you republicans out there, don't pretend that republicans care about jobs being outsourced. They're the biggest promoters of it! The dems just go along for the ride.

Anonymous said...

After the profession finally collapses and TTTs will have to start closing doors, look for ABA to start taking "preventive measures" to "maintain the quality of the profession". (i.e. covering their ass and trying to close the barn door after all the cattle ran to India)

Anonymous said...

Actually Dems like the Clintons rode in on outsourcing. That's why they were able to raise such enormous amounts of campaign cash. They didn't just go along for the ride.

I agree that the republicans are no better.

Trollop said...

The first few commenters got it right, this is the result of the greediest generation in American history. Will our generation be any better? Probably worse. After all of you priviliged fucks inherit your parent's money (baby boomer money), you'll be even more cold-hearted and mongering than the boomers.

Anonymous said...

The Boomers paved the way for the empty greed that afflicts our nation. On a lighter note, the race to the gutter continues.

http://techprb.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/unitedlex-announces-strategic-alliance-with-huron-consulting-group-to-deliver-high-quality-multi-shore-litigation-document-review-services/

February 2, 2009
UnitedLex Announces Strategic Alliance with Huron Consulting Group to Deliver High Quality Multi-Shore Litigation Document Review Services
Filed under: Uncategorized — wingsguou @ 3:45 pm

UnitedLex Announces Strategic Alliance with Huron Consulting Group to Deliver High Quality Multi-Shore Litigation Document Review Services

Alliance Between the Two Leading Document Review Providers Drives
New Era for Quality and Flexibility.

New York, NY (PRWEB) February 2, 2009 — UnitedLex, a global leader in legal consulting, technology and outsourcing, today announced at LegalTech New York a strategic alliance with Huron Consulting Group, a leading provider of financial and operational consulting services. The alliance allows both companies to deliver high-quality multi-shore litigation document review services to clients facing complex commercial, intellectual property, product liability and antitrust litigation.

Through this alliance, the multi-shore combination of Huron’s approximately 1,000 seats in the US with UnitedLex’s 600 seats in its Indian centers will create one of the world’s largest integrated document review solutions capable of cost-effectively addressing the requirements of Fortune 500 companies and AmLaw 200 law firms.

“The need to lower costs associated with legal discovery without compromising quality is accelerating demand for outsourced document review solutions,” said Robert Rowe, Managing Director of Huron’s Legal Consulting practice. “Addressing the needs of the market, we have implemented several offshore solutions with UnitedLex, and have found them to be of measurably high performance with rapid turn-around times and managed to the highest US standards. We are excited about expanding our alliance with UnitedLex to bring these solutions and their quality and cost savings benefits to our litigation customers worldwide.”

Under this business arrangement, technology and process consultants from Huron’s Document Review group, together with personnel from Huron’s e-Discovery group, will work closely with UnitedLex to offer a unique, fully scalable document review solution to companies worldwide. UnitedLex has dedicated a team of attorneys, project managers and Six Sigma certified quality managers to deliver document review solutions to Huron’s customers who opt for the multi-shore solution.

“For the first time, clients have the ability to seamlessly enjoy best-in-class document review regardless of whether they select onshore or offshore delivery locations,” said Dan Reed, CEO of UnitedLex. “Huron’s reputation as the leading onshore document review company is well deserved and their methodology of delivering high quality services are very much in sync with the practices we have perfected. Additionally, the ability for UnitedLex to work closely with Huron in the area of intellectual property solutions and contracts management is exceptionally promising as it enables us to support even the largest corporate legal departments on a truly global scale.”

As part of the solution, UnitedLex and Huron have jointly implemented a program, under which quality specialists from both companies closely assess each project’s effectiveness and efficiency criteria in the context of training the attorney teams, and provide real-time performance measurement and feedback to clients as part of this collaborative project management.

The alliance will also include Huron’s industry-pioneering integrated discovery management solution, V3locity™, and further extends the close collaboration between the two firms throughout 2009 on a range of litigation matters widely endorsed by a number of clients. If you are attending LegalTech New York, please visit UnitedLex and Huron executives at booth #1310.

About Huron Consulting Group

Huron Consulting Group (NASDAQ: HURN) helps clients effectively address complex challenges that arise in litigation, disputes, investigations, regulatory compliance, procurement, financial distress and other sources of significant conflict or change. The Company also helps clients deliver superior customer and capital market performance through integrated strategic, operational and organizational change. Huron provides services to a wide variety of both financially sound and distressed organizations, including Fortune 500 companies, medium-sized businesses, leading academic institutions, healthcare organizations and the law firms that represent these various organizations. Learn more at www.huronconsultinggroup.com.

About UnitedLex

UnitedLex is a global leader in legal consulting, technology and outsourcing. The company empowers its clients by delivering rapid and scalable results with measurable returns in the fields of litigation, contracts and sourcing, intellectual property, immigration and law firm support. With offices in the United States, the United Kingdom and India, UnitedLex offers its clients the optimal blend of consulting and technology-driven outsourcing solutions. For more information, visit www.UnitedLex.com.

# # #

Contact Information

Shannon Cortina

732-863-1900

Anonymous said...

9:56 the spirit in which you intend it is obvious, but it might be better if we don't publish their press releases here for them. It seems like some outsourcers have been waging a bit of a public relations war on this blog. Press releases are no more than advertisements. So maybe if we didn't place their ads here for them.

Anonymous said...

maybe it would be better if we don't post their press releases for them.

Anonymous said...

If you don't like the direction the industry is taking, quit temping. There are alternatives; most attorneys don't work as temps or at big firms.

Given time the outsorcing will blow up in someones face. The economy sucks right now so corporations want to do stuff cheap. So do the law firms; the big firm model sucks and is collapsing. It's cyclical. When the economy is good the big firms buy the mid-size firms. When it's bad the big firms go bankrupt. Right now, the big firms are in dire straights. That's why they want to outsorce. They'll cross the line and someone will get a huge sanction.

Until then find some kind of employment besides temping.

Anonymous said...

legal temping is where tech was in the 90s, at the very tipping point were the critical mass starts to develop.

Look at the stock prices of the outsourcers: theyve totally held their own in a shitty market.

The market is telling you that the business model is viable, in other words, to get the f*ck out.

Dont count on outsourcing legislation, because the US does a shitload of foreign work on shore, like very sophisticated OECD work, and it would invite retaliation, since the law would have to apply to all WTO members and could not just exclude India.

Anonymous said...

11:33

It's not the same pardiam as technology outsorcing. You're dealing with members of a professional body. You might see onshore solutions to cheaper areas of the US.

Anonymous said...

We're practically in a depression so just finding other jobs is not that easy.

The client advisory refers to outsourcing as experimental and driven by the credit crunch. It may be that doc review starts coming back due to the poor quality of the work. The experiment may come to be seen as a failure.

The biggest problem is that the outlook is not seen as good for a economic recovery happening until 2010. There will probably be a dire need for more UE (bigger checks and additional extensions) until then.

Anonymous said...

11:41 is right, long term probably doc reviewers in NYC will be out in the cold even if outsourcing legal work ends. It will go to cheaper areas of the U.S. We would need a really economic boom to get it back here in a meaningful way.

Anonymous said...

a really substantial economic boom to get it back here in a meaningful way.

Anonymous said...

The de-equitization of income partners, turning associates into temps, shipping document review to India...... how low can it go?

Talk about a race to the bottom. Our economy is designed to reward those at the very tip, top of the pyramid and screw everyone else. We should just take the head partner of every major law firm and deify them as sun gods. This is all so disgraceful.

Anonymous said...

"I desire an all- encompassing destruction. Very good. That's justifiable and what's more it's clear."

[raises glass]

"To the destruction of all that is."

Anonymous said...

I desire an all- encompassing destruction. Very good. That's justifiable and what's more it's clear."

[raises glass]

"To the destruction of what is."

Anonymous said...

What is scary is even Starbucks isn't hiring right now.

Anonymous said...

Starbuckscaused this recession. Brainashing yuppies into believing that milk, coffee and caramel was worth $4.50 a cup.

When Starbucks goes under, you know the recession is over.

Anonymous said...

Check this story! Look at the bottom to see who is reporting it!
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE51213720090203

Do we need a guy in Bangalore to report on the Mets and Citigroup?

Anonymous said...

11:37 you mean you know that when Starbucks goes under you know the recession's over because the depression has begun don't you? When and if there is a recovery, if Starbucks is around lots of people will be heading there so they can feel that everything is good again moneywise.

Anonymous said...

11:50 the link doesn't work

Anonymous said...

A lot of the big newspapers have outsourced their reporting. No joke!

"Hi Mr. Wilpon"

"Yes"

"This Babu from the Chicago Sun Times, reporting from India. Can you tell me more about the naming rights for the new stadium?"

Anonymous said...

"if Starbucks is around lots of people will be heading there so they can feel that everything is good again moneywise."

11:57, you ae either acutely naive, or younger than 26. Either way, I suggest picking up a copy of the Wall Street Journal. There has been a sea change in consumption in the United States. Specialty retailers, such as Starbucks, will be recessionary for years to come, regardless of the expansion of the overall economy.

I believe that everyone awaysknew that wasting money would hit them someday and that day is here. Americans will not soon begin blowing money again on non-necessities such as Starbucks $5.00 mocha lattes. Sure, Starbucks will retain a presence in the large cities, but specialty retailers will be squeezed in this new economy and Starbucks is at the top of the list of non-discretionary items.

Dunkin Donuts is a winner here.

Wha this economy needs is a puging of the excessesof the old econom, including the Starbucks of the world.

Anonymous said...

12:30 you don't know people and you sure don't know me. Your views seem a bit skewed due to your obsessing over Starbucks. If Starbucks goes under, that will not be a sign that things are getting better, no matter how much you hate it.

Anonymous said...

12:58.

No I do't know you but I know your words. Rapid deterioration in specialty retailers, such as Starbucks is a bullish sign. bearish indicators accelerate at the bottom of a downturn, one of those indicators is the velocity of layoffs, bankruptcies et. al. Expunging the market of poorly run companies is bullish. Not sure how you see it, if you are an investor, if you majored in English Lit or what, but the above is how our markets work.

Not saying Starbucks goes under, but if it does, that would be bullish to me for the market overall. Less junk for folks to blow their money on and it will instead bediverted to better rn companies like Dunkin and McDs.

Best,

Anonymous said...

1:04 You use a lot of buzz words but without any understanding of human behavior. When people have money in their pockets again, the belt-tightening will end and they will splurge more often. If Starbucks were to go under it would only be due to belt-tightening because they have less $$$. That is not a sign of a bullish market. You know a lot of buzz terms but you have yet to use any of them correctly.

Anonymous said...

1:05 we all get what your fast food preferences are but if a major success story like Starbucks ends in failure it will not mean that all is well in the economy.

Anonymous said...

Sorry that should have been 1:04 not 1:05.

Anonymous said...

1:20, I have a few hundred thousand in the stock market at these levels. Poorly run companies, like Starbucks, need to be eliminated.

I;ve shorted that dog since last April. How are those "buzz words".

Before Starbucks, it was Krispy Kreme, another shit company. This economy once flused of shit companies like Starbucks, can begin to create new better run companies, which will invariably eventually become shit themselves as is the cycle.

And no i am not lying although I know you think I am. Best,

Anonymous said...

WTF? Why are you talking about Starbucks? Let's get back on point. I haven't been called for a project in months, and looking at the LPO balance sheets it is clear that all of the subprime work is being carried out in India. Why are we letting these fucks get away with the unauthorized practice of law? PPP have been UP, not DOWN, in many firms. Firms like Heller blew up, not because of a dearth of work for the partners, but mainly because a few greedy fuck partners weren't happy with earning 1.2 mil a year and jumped ship so that they could earn 1.4 mil a year. It's time for everyone to start sharing the burden in this economic downturn, not just contract attorneys and cast off associates.

Anonymous said...

11:41

My guess is this:

First they'll try offshoring. Someone will get burned. Give it a few more months. They're already having problems.

Next, they'll onshore to lower cost centers.

After that, they'll move everything back to NYC and DC.

The corportations are tightening their belt and are looking for ways to save costs. Once the economy turns around, they'll spend money to avoid taking risks.

Anonymous said...

Don't you mean "curried out" in India?

Anonymous said...

This is pathetic. Are any of you actually going to get off your asses and do something? The French are mobbing in the streets, the Chinese are protesting in the face of a totaltarian regime that executes political prisoners and scalps their eviserated bodies and parades them around the world in a "bodies" exhibit.

Anonymous said...

This is pathetic. Are any of you actually going to get off your asses and do something? The French are mobbing in the streets, the Chinese are protesting in the face of a totaltarian regime that executes political prisoners and scalps their eviserated bodies and parades them around the world in a "bodies" exhibit.

Anonymous said...

244

Most American people suffer from a mass version of Stockholm Syndrome.

Anonymous said...

12:14

It would actually be more like this...

"This [STATIC] Babu from Chicago Sun Time [STATIC], connect for you are report from [STATIC] India. Can tell me about sport [STATIC] more naming rights is possible for a new [STATIC] stadium?"

Anonymous said...

12:58

Rapid deterioration of specialty retailers is a bullish sign, but usually only when they are brand new retail concepts that were poorly-thought out and underfunded, which happens around the crest of a business cycle. It's bullish because the stock market is still going up at that point.

Collapse of long-established brands, though, is a bearish sign because it's a sign of demand destruction.

Anonymous said...

Apparently, one firm that used exclusively doc review software missed loads of privileged docs. So there is a need for manual doc review after all.

http://tempinfo.com/Joomla/

Anonymous said...

Given the oversupply of lawyers why are hourly charges so high at most attorney's offices compared to other professions such as engineers and accountants? Demand should be highly elastic so an attorney willing to work for $130 per hour like most accountants and engineers should do well.

Anonymous said...

just go be a fireman!

oops, nevermind...

http://www.miamiherald.com/business/local-state/story/885039.html

Anonymous said...

5:32

Because many of this glut of lawyers are working mainly on contingency.

Anonymous said...

5:32

Because there is plenty of work for a solo practitioner. Most of the "shister" attorneys working out of a small office with other attorneys are clearing 80K and more than half are over 100K.

They work on contingency because it's very profitable. A 60K settlement (which may take 9 months and about 10 hours of real work with no boss) nets the attorney 20K.

That's why people work for one year at 35-50K and then solo instead of temping for years on end.

Anonymous said...

Now is the worst time ever to go solo. With the surfeit of law schools, every unemployed recent grad is starting up a law firm.

Bad idea and not so easy to make more than $30k first year. You need months and months of savings.

http://www.kansascity.com/business/story/1014172.html

Anonymous said...

http://www.kansascity.com/business/story/1014172.html

Anonymous said...

http://www.kansascity.com/
business/story/1014172.html

Anonymous said...

February 3, 2009 5:29 AM
Report: IBM offering to relocate laid off workers to India, China, Brazil
Posted by Benjamin J. Romano
InformationWeek, citing an internal document, reports that IBM is helping recently laid off workers find positions with the company overseas. From the document:

"IBM has established Project Match to help you locate potential job opportunities in growth markets where your skills are in demand. Should you accept a position in one of these countries, IBM offers financial assistance to offset moving costs, provides immigration support, such as visa assistance, and other support to help ease the transition of an international move."
The document goes on to say the program is for Canadian and U.S. workers "willing to work on local terms and conditions." InformationWeek says that "indicates that workers will be paid according to prevailing norms in the countries to which they relocate. In many cases, that could be substantially less than what they earned in North America."

Other countries in the program include Mexico, the Czech Republic, Russia, South Africa, Nigeria, and the United Arab Emirates.

IBM has cut an estimated 4,000 jobs since it reported fourth-quarter earnings. This Associated Press story described the plight of one laid-off IBM worker:

"Jim Gallo, 48, who said he worked in IBM software support for 27 years, was among those let go from that facility[IBM's Essex Junction facility in Vermont]. Gallo, drinking a Grey Goose and ginger ale at nearby Lincoln Inn on Tuesday, said he hadn't told his four children yet.
"He said he has until Feb. 26 to find another job in IBM, but he put his chances at 'slim to none.' Gallo said he gets six months' pay as part of a severance package.

"'It's too bad they're not doing what they were doing before. They offered some sweet packages for people to jump out,' he said.

"IBM's ongoing labor adjustments have led the company to add bodies in cheaper and higher-growth parts of the world, like India.

"In 2007, the last full year for which detailed employment numbers are available, 121,000 of IBM's 387,000 workers were in the U.S., down slightly from the year before. Meanwhile, staffing in India has jumped from just 9,000 workers in 2003 to 74,000 workers in 2007."

The InformationWeek story on IBM's Project Match provides interesting context to a discussion going on in the comments of my last post on Microsoft's immigration reform position.

Reader John A. Bailo wrote: "China and India are moving into a phase where they are net importers of engineers. Their domestic economics could dwarf our own. In fact, at some point, people coming to America or staying here may get equivelently less pay than the more competitive markets overseas."

Anonymous said...

why public pressure matters?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/business/04pay.html?_r=1&hp

Titans of wall street limited to 500k. Still a lot of money, but peanuts compared to what they make in the bonuses.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and if the last post is not clear, the issues raised here need to be raised in the mainstream press- ie, about the language issue for one with outsourcing legal work. This is a big issue that was ironically alreay addressed with other areas of practice. So, it's ironic at this lower level of practice , doc review land, they are once more making that same mistake.

Anonymous said...

...then you have your hindu bastards, they own every convenience store in the area. They are putting mind control drugs in the Snicker's bars. Now they are taking over the legal profession through the internet. They will purge our accounts, steal our jobs and leave us broke. They live 9 in an apartment, sleeping with their brothers and sisters. Motha fuckas.

Anonymous said...

8:24

On the contrary, now is the BEST time to open a solo, reeducate, or take a crummy entry level position.

You want the 3-4 months when you're not making any money to occur when the economy sucks. That way you're not losing money that you would ordinarily be making in wages. It's also cheaper to start up. Your also in a good position when the economy turns around.

If you open a solo when the economy is good, you have to pay higher costs for rent, etc. and you're not working when you could be.

Also, the advantage of soloing is you can target a section of the economy that is counter-cyclical (bankruptcy for example).

By the way, I don't think that much is going on with the outsorcing that hasn't already been going on. Doc. review is cyclical. The corporations cut costs so they won't pay the money for a bunch of coders to sit around and basically do nothing.

Anonymous said...

Outsourcing has been going on successsfully for years. you are delusional if you think there is going to be one big "failure" and its all going to come back. it takes nothing at all to be a click monkey, to look up names on a privilege list or mark porn non-relevant. don't overestimate yourself or your skill set - it is not worth 35 dollars an hour.

frankly i dont even understand why first level review has to be done by "attorneys" it could be done by a relatively bright high school student. the second level could then be done by attorneys, nor do i understand why you have to go through three years of law school to take the bar. a relatively bright college student could get through with about three months of study.

this whole "professsion" is one big scam

Anonymous said...

Welcome to Starbucks. This Babau. I in Bangalore now, but I fill your Starbucks order over internet. Wait . . . here it comes. That ten dolla please. Thank you, come again.

Anonymous said...

5:32,

I think rates can get so high because there's still an imbalance between supply and demand for the most skillful and experienced attorneys. For instance, if you're a doctor (or a doctor's insurance company) and there's a $1,000,000 lawsuit against you, you want to hire someone with at least 10 years of experience that has handled a lot of med mal cases (including a couple trials), who has a track record of success. The supply of lawyers that meets that description is still pretty low, while the demand is still high (every doctor that's ever been sued would probably prefer these qualifications).

I think the premium that's placed on judgement and experience is higher for attorney's than it is for engineers and accountants. As the stakes get higher in law, the percieved value added by a good attorney goes up.

Anonymous said...

I think the premium that's placed on judgement and experience is higher for attorney's than it is for engineers and accountants.

Because that's all a really good lawyer offers: superior judgment and experience.

Anonymous said...

2:06 if you were a stock market whiz you wouldn't be here on a doc review blog.

Anonymous said...

The sudden upsurge in outsourcing coincided with the credit crunch and is being done out of desparation. It will end to a large extent when there is a recovery or a major screw-up, whichever comes first. Likely it will be onshored to cheaper places than NYC until and unless there is a great big recovery. Whether it is in India or Indiana, won't make much difference to us until then.

Anonymous said...

India or Indiana, either way, we're still on UE while we can get it

Anonymous said...

Winning a legal battle against outsourcing legal work would help but it would only get us halfway there. Economic reality can't be sued.

Anonymous said...

I love this blog primarily because of comments like 352.

Your comment is retarded on its face. But you got a law degree so you think you are smart. You are an idiot. Of course economic reality can be sued. Corporations do that all the time. How the hell can you be on any doc review and not realize what litigation is about?

Anonymous said...

I love this blog primarily because of comments like 352.

Your comment is retarded on its face. But you got a law degree so you think you are smart. You are an idiot. Of course economic reality can be sued. Corporations do that all the time. How the hell can you be on any doc review and not realize what litigation is about?

Anonymous said...

3:58 insulting and banal comments like yours only reveal your own ignorance. Please, on behalf of all of us, oh brilliant and glorious leader, file a complaint against the depression. Show us the way.

Anonymous said...

i'd like some cites 3:58

Anonymous said...

If economic reality can be sued why aren't the corporations doing it now? Why aren't biglaw firms doing that instead of firing associates and staff? The litigators' truism is that when you don't have the facts on your side, you pound the table. Sounds pretty much like what you're doing 3:58 except you've probably never even seen the table.

Anonymous said...

You are right 3:25.

Anonymous said...

From corner office to sweeping floors in Starbucks, one man's "movie deal" story
Andrea Chalupa
Feb 4th 2009 at 11:45AMText SizeAAA
Filed under: Career

CNN reported a segment this morning on Michael Gates Gill, a former ad exec and self-described "Master of the Universe," who lost his job and is now working at a Starbucks in New York. Life, according to Gill, couldn't be more blissful. Once married to his career, he now enjoys the easy banter with customers while sweeping floors and re-filling the milk.

Life is what you make of it, is Gill's lesson, and it will soon be coming to theaters in a movie being developed by Good Will Hunting and Milk director, Gus Van Sant. Tom Hanks is said to star. The movie will be based on Gill's memoir, How Starbucks Saved My Life: A Son of Privilege Learns to Live Like Everyone Else. As my French friend, who's currently in New York, said after watching Gill on CNN, "Only in America, that's what makes this country so great."


This is posted on AOL
For the video go to http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2009/02/04/from-corner-office-to-sweeping-floors-in-starbucks-one-mans-m/

Anonymous said...

3:52 et seq.

Not only can economic reality sued, but Congress has the power to pass a law BANNING OUTSOURCING, they just won't do it.

We are living in an age where Americans mistakenly believe that economic realities dictate everything. We are conditioned to believe that we, and our political leaders, are powerless to do anything that conflicts with "The Market". But the Constitution gives Congress an almost carte-blanche power to regulate and control markets... remember? And it's not just the Commerce Clause which gives Congress this right.... it's the whole document.

But our neo-liberal, free marketeer leaders in both parties, with the aid of the Corporate Media, have conditioned and brainwashed the American public into actually believing we (through our elected leaders) are impotent to make such changes... that "The Market" rules all.

That's a dangerously wrongheaded misconception, it is totally erroneous, and if this persists I guarantee it will lead to our total and utter downfall as a nation, and to our children and grandchildren either living in poverty, or living under the absolute control of a foreign imperial power. That's right, people... the USA as we know it will cease to exist, because we, the American public, have been bamboozled!

Anonymous said...

648

I can understand this thought process from average Americans. But you would think lawyers who regularly work on cases involving one party suing another over "economic" reality would realize that "reality" is all in how you define it. I don't expect "Joe the Plumber" to understand this, but seriously, I question whether people are on doc reviews if they got to ask that question. The whole point of much of the litigation we see is one party does not like an economic outcome and is suing another party over it. And here's the surprise: sometimes those parties who sue economic reality win.

Anonymous said...

6:48 you konw I am as mad as anyone else at what has happened to my country and what corporate fraudsters have done to our way of life but I really don't follow your argument at all. You do nothing but jump from one conclusionary statements to another without even any sort of logic to support it. Please explain what you mena in a normal calm reasoned tone instead of Rush(ia) Limbugh type hyperbole. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

reality check:

US sheds over half a mil jobs in Jan

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/ADP-employment-index-finds-522000/story.aspx?guid={BF5FAAF0-8BB4-4DC6-A0AB-1F7DB315E5D7}

this is a depression.

Anonymous said...

7:08 I gotta think you are 6:48 because chances are 2 people could not believe you can sue the depression. What are you waiting for, go file the claim. We're waiting.

Anonymous said...

Two people could be stupid enough to think you could sue the depression but they wouldn't show both show up here so close in time.

Anonymous said...

733

How does one link my post about the depression to my posts about suing over economic conditions?

One post is discussing just a bit of news.

The other is challenging an idealogical argument that's false on its face to any practicing lawyer that economic reality is what it is, and thus we should just 'accept" it.

Accept 'economic reality" a false statement given we are in a business where people sue each other over economic realities all the time.

How this in in dispute amongst lawyers?

Anonymous said...

733

by the way- nice bit of paranoia there about the closeness of my posts. One was written, and then, having just read the numbers, i figured i'd like many of you to them.I

Anonymous said...

Put up or shut up. File your lawsuit against economic reality. After you do that, post a copy of the complaint here.

Anonymous said...

Who exactly is it we are supposed to sue if the jobs that are outsourced come back but to somewhere else in the country because of the economic reality that we are in a depression? Name the potential defendant or defendants. Specify the legal basis for the claim.

Anonymous said...

a) Put up or shut up? Well that sounds tough, but confused.

You should know better as lawyers that your statements are not true. Litigation is a factor among others in markets. How is this in dispute? Why do I have to put up anything to prove an idea that your employers and industry use every day at work?

b) Yes, there is a down turn in the economy, but these issues existed before the downturn and will exist after. Again, what your point? They are two separate issues that both happen to affect contract attorneys. You are the one seeking to link them as if they a result of the same thing. This is why I listed them as separate posts. They aren't linked other than defining a temporary downturn as the excuse for the way temp attorneys are treated.

Anonymous said...

8:41 you are babbling gibberish because you have no real answers or intention to act on any of your ideas. You keep going on and on about what attorneys should know and you don't even sound like an attorney. The economic reality that is different now is that due to the depression, the projects that used to be here are not here. If the outsourcers are successfully sued, that would be a good thing but there is no unauthorized practice of law complaint to be made if the jobs wind up back in the U.S. but not here due to the depression. We would still be out of work. What is it about that simple fact that you can't understand? You do know that you have to have a defendant in a lawsuit don't you? Who would your proposed defendant be?

Anonymous said...

914

Except I did not link the depression post to my post about suing over economic issues. You did. Repetition of a lie does not make it fact.

Anonymous said...

Suing who over economic issues 9:23?

Anonymous said...

The position that you took was that people can not sue over economic reality. You are changing the argument for a third time.

Anonymous said...

Hello? The statement was "Economic reality can't be sued." It is still there for anyone to see. No matter how much nonsense you post economic reality cannot be sued.

Anonymous said...

9:35 you seem to have some kind of a language issue. There is a difference between suing over an economic issue, which can be done if there is an actual defendant who can be named & suing economic reality itself, which can't be done because economic reality cannot be named as a defendant. I'm beginning to feel like I'm dealing with one of those calling centers in India.

tempinfo.com said...

Anyone working in NYC?

Anonymous said...

not that I know of, but at least people are doing something about it. check it out.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/wch/lgl/1020229824.html

Anonymous said...

Some of us may have to take demeaning jobs to get through this for a year or so. I have two resumes. One has no law degree listed under education. If I have to get a job at Target or a deli, I know not to list the JD. It is worse than the scarlet letter.

The economy will come back. I'm in default on my loans and will have to worry about it later. Everything happens for a reason. This is a learning experience.

Anonymous said...

The best thing to do is go to Japan or Korea to teach English. Spend at least 3-5 years there, living at a pay grade just slightly above subsistence. When you come back, you'll speak Japanese or Korean well enough to do doc review in those languages!

Anonymous said...

So after 3-5 years living at a subsistence level the payoff is more document review? Um, anyone else notice a problem with this idea?

Temp Hottie said...

I agree with 12:36 PM's comments.

Anonymous said...

"Aw, fuck you! Fuck the lot of you! Fuck you all!"

Anonymous said...

anyone have any info on theladders.com website touting 100k jobs for 100k people -- its a paid site?

Anonymous said...

if you leave off the JD, what do you do about the legal work experience- make stuff up?