Wednesday, November 26, 2008

Happy Thanksgiving, Indeed!



http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/11/26/more-legal-work-moves-to-india-including-sexy-stuff/#comment-359178

57 comments:

Anonymous said...

Terrorists just hit Mumbai. I hope India doesn't retaliate with all those nukes lying around. Better get those documents out of there.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27928718/

Anonymous said...

I bet there is a lot of confusion going on in some of those document review centers. I hope someone doesn't walk off with a hard drive.

Anonymous said...

has anyone else contemplated the fact that same american fims that are outsourcing to Mumbia will basically screw themselves when their multinational clients get the idea to just cut out the expensive new york firm and go with an Indian - British Law based firm for a fraction of the cost

Oh please let that happen to stop this evil trend

Anonymous said...

Be thankful for what we have. When you look in the mirror, you are not a hindu.

Anonymous said...

Here we go again.

Look at the 2006 NYSBA opinion. This LPO stuff isn't going to last. All the last ABA opinon did was give the green light to the state bars.

Sending legal work to non-lawyers isn't a novel concept. Every 10 years or so, some entreprenuer tries it and the local bars stop them. I think last time around it revolved around non-attorneys preparing wills, etc.

The catch is the priv call on the doc. reviews. If a non-attorney blows it and misses the doc., it can't be recalled. This results in malpractice suits, sanctions, etc.

Don't sweat the outsorcing. It won't last. The current problem is caused by the economy. 4 months ago, there was a posting every day or so on Craig's list. The 2008 ABA opinon didn't cause all the work to dry up. It's the economy.

Anonymous said...

Looks like the thing in Mumbai is turning into a major gun fight and hostage situation. I hope everyone over there is remaining calm and diligent and not glossing over any privileged material.

Anonymous said...

Tom the Turkey, helping send temp work to India since 2004.

Anonymous said...

So if a bomb goes off next door, do the Indian temps get to take the rest of the day off? Or does their slavemaster channel Fatnita and require them to click away while the smoke clears?

I wonder how much it would cost to bribe an Indian attorney to load some of these docs onto his smartphone and send them to the other side? $1k? $500?

Anonymous said...

The article noted that there was even higher turnover on the India projects.

spaces said...

I'm thankful I still have a job. This year.

Anonymous said...

I cannot afford my rent that is due in two weeks. Happy Holidays, killself.

Anonymous said...

So, don't pay it. Nobody else can either.

Anonymous said...

Well, after today's tragic terrorist attack in Mumbai, the heart of legal outsourcing, its pretty obvious that the era of Indian outsourcing is over.

Anonymous said...

Scary stuff. I hope the people that responded to those craigslist ads to help out over there are okay.

Anonymous said...

Things are looking pretty grim in my city (not NY or DC metro area). Contract jobs are almost nonexistent. There are hardly any postings for jobs at smaller firms.

I am doing what I can to discourage people from attending law school. For most, law school is a waste of $120,000.

Anonymous said...

Get used to it. Hunker down. Close the shutters. The financial and banking meltdown that once seemed so abstract is finally hitting the general economy. It is going to be really tough out there for the next 6-12 months. Hopefully, you had the foresight to see this coming and were able to save some money and not be tied down by some jumbo mortgage. I am preparing for months of unemployment with low paying projects far and few between.

Anonymous said...

It's the same in NYC, and what contract jobs that there are suck -- crummy firms with a high turnover. I suspect the small firm jobs are similar. Anybody with a decent boss job isn't going anywhere and normal places aren't hiring. All that leaves is places with a very high turnover (and there's generally a bad reason for that).

Have you tried other types of temping? Good luck.

Anonymous said...

cough.... cough.... DiscoverReady.

Anonymous said...

It's all cyclical.

Post 9/11, absolutely dead, no work. It felt like the end of the world.

'02 to the beginning of '03 was pretty slow, but you could always sweat it out on some awful project with high turnover....the Vioxx salt mine comes to mind.

The end of '03 things started to pick up which poured into the boom years of '04-'06. '07 things started to slowly wind down which leads to where we are today.

Anonymous said...

Agreed.

It's supply and demand. More attorneys moving into the temp market (because Biglaw fired them) and less jobs (because the people that pay don't have the money).

I might take a six month vacation and then see what the market is like. I don't have any kids or a mortgage, and the dollar is strong.

Anonymous said...

The Chinese know how to do it.

"In recent weeks, a series of riots across central and southern China have flowered as disgruntled employees aired their grievances at the downturn.

Today, around 500 protesters rioted at the Kai Da toy factory in Dongguan in the Pearl River delta, flipping over a police car and trashing computers in a dispute over payoffs to 80 fired workers. Tens of thousands of factories across the region have already shut their gates. "



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/3525052/China-slashes-interest-rates-as-panic-spreads.html

Anonymous said...

we've all been castrated and eviscerated by the corporations, schools and firms. We are just docile sheep ready for the slaughter.

Anonymous said...

One ray of hope you might consider. In '01 the crisis was centered around the tech industry in Silicon Valley. This one centers around the sub-primes in NYC. This might lead to large discovery projects around NYC since it's where the financial industry and securities firms are centered. I heard this happened a few months after Enron.

Anonymous said...

That was th best article I've read all year. Finally! An answer to all of our prayers. We won't have to work in those temp jobs where we don't get treated like we should. We are free! No more mistreatment!

If all the jobs go abroad we won't have anything to complain about. This is fabulous!!

Happy Holidays!

Anonymous said...

Having read some of the ATL comments I have to say although I don't consider myself racist having grown up in nyc and am myself a minority of sorts

.. that being said does assignments in India come with gas masks -- can be interpreted in many diff ways

Anonymous said...

Happppy Thanksgiving everyone.!! A day off from clicking or wishing you were clicking. India can click my dick. The ABA can lick my dick. And, the female clickers should receive a similar benefit.

Anonymous said...

satan's spawn

http://www.pangea3.com/people_management.html

Anonymous said...

Tom the Turkey strikes again! More salacious details inside America's sweatshops....Oh wait, they moved the sweatshops to Mumbai....

Babu the Temp, will be reporting from Mumbai next week about the deplorable conditions and hourly pay scandals, free coffee and surly supervisors.

Anonymous said...

There is more to report from Mumbai aside from free coffee and surly supervisors unfortunately.

Anonymous said...

Can this blog please cut down on the fear mongering? Things will get busy, just be patient. Relax and enjoy the turkey.


NEW YORK (Reuters) - The U.S. subprime mortgage crisis has sparked more than 250 class action suits against Wall Street banks and rating companies and will lead to rising regulation in 2009, top litigators said on Thursday.

Global hedge funds also face a new regulatory environment and massive redemptions, and law firms are bracing for a flood of lawsuits related to the collapse of the mortgage and structured debt industry, according to Jonathan Sablone, a partner and co-chair of Nixon Peabody's alternative investment litigation practice.

"There's going to be a tidal wave of litigation," Sablone said during a subprime mortgage conference in New York. "Invariably, when you're fighting over a limited pool, someone's going to get left out."

Nixon Peabody has received many phone calls in preparation for legal filings and expects a new wave to hit in January.

Anonymous said...

There might be a tidalwave of litigation, but Wall Street's smaller budget will make Indian attorneys look better than ever. Low cost is everything now that funds are low.

Besides, you don't want to be on of those "sweatshop" projects, anyway, right? There's no more money for US temps that smoke weed on the job and overbill. SORRY.

Anonymous said...

At least somebody on this board is reasonable and intelligent.

Anonymous said...

Nigerian coders in NYC @ $40 per hour or Indian reviewers for $6 in Mumbai...hmmm....which would you pick?

Anonymous said...

It's not that simple. Read the NY City Bar opinion (2006).

Non-college grads for $10 an hour or bared attorneys for $40. Same calculus applies.

By the way, don't sign up for any supervisory position with this outsouring stuff. It's your license on the line, not some temp sales person. Someone is going to get nailed for facilitating the unauthorized practice of law before it's all over.

Anonymous said...

11:18! Our Thanksgiving clairvoyant! He can see the future! Someone is "going to get nailed".

Please use your powers to tell us about the economy and how we should invest. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

India's prime minister is now blaming nuclear Pakistan for the recent bout of terrorism. Looks like many of these firms may be moving their sensitive legal work over to a war zone. Sending legal work to unlicensed low paid labor in a war zone sounds like potential malpractice to me.

Anonymous said...

"bared attorneys?"...a lot of us have laid bare.

Anonymous said...

Outsourcing to India is brilliant. Let's see what you losers complain about when there are no temp jobs for you. Can't wait to see this. Karma is the best.

Anonymous said...

Reality check. I am posting here to prevent a reduction in the rates due to ignorant panicking and/or agencies try to stir up fear and thus reduce the rates.

Litigation is countercylical. There will be a lot of projects after the first when the suits start to hit due to the financial melt down. The intial response was to wait and see until after the 4th quarter returns are in. But a law suit does not care about waiting and thus the pressure will start to build.

Law firms and their clients are conservative. Some will go abroad. Most will not. Especially after the terrorist attack. That's the reality. Outsourcing also has its limits legally for all the other reasons stated regarding local bars, etc.

There is also not enough infrastructure to handle litigation in India yet. If you read between the lines the article, they mention there is a need for a lot more oversight. How many Americans are willing to move to India to provide this oversight? Some yes. Many- no.

That's not including the prospective regulatory stuff as the Feds seek to re-regulate the financial industries. Part of the reason business dried up over the last few decades was under conservative paradigms that were less for lawyers to do. Now there will be more.

So, I agree. Chill and not start stupid things like taking projects that pay 21/hour or other such nonsense.

Anonymous said...

Predictions for the future -- so far I've done well. I pulled my money out of the market and didn't invest in real estate. So, I'm sitting on a big pile of money. I also worked as an associate for a few years so I've got some experience to fall back on if I need it; unlike the permatemps who were fired as soon as it became convenient. Now their only experience for the past 3 years is sorting emails – real smart.

Also, my powers of clairvoyance told me that the temp market would get hit hard in the recession, so I left myself with options (that I won’t mention here for obvious reasons).

Anyway, my predictions are that in six months A) outsourcing won't last (too much precedent preventing non-attorneys from doing attorney work), B) the temp market will improve after the New Year and the projects will be reasonable in six months (new quarter and securities litigations taking place in NYC), C) some idiot attorney will get nailed for facilitating the unauthorized practice of law (30% of the temps are greedy and stupid. They’ll let some salesperson sucker them into authorizing the outsourcing nonsense for a 6 figure salary), and D) some temp agency will do something stupid and get hit with a nasty defamation law suit (The recruiters work on commission, so the smart ones used their connections to land a job with the firms, the people left are idiots -- have you noticed that most of the people at the agencies don’t have Esq. after their names).

I repeat my warning – don’t let the agencies trick you into managing or authorizing the outsourced work. You’ll be the one responsible, not the sales person who’s tricking you into it. Look up the case law. There is precedent for disbarment when it comes to failitaion of the unauthorized practice of law, and someone will be made an example of.

Anonymous said...

On this day of thanks, I think we should all extend a huge thank you to our own personal temp Norstradamus.

I expect great things from thee, o' lord, He who forcasts that hides behind loser temp blog. Behold!

So He has written... so it will be done.

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Anonymous said...

This is the best. A records clerk getting 65K from a firm, yet there is no work for Attorneys. I should have gotten a degree in "Record Supervision."


Records Supervisor-Law firm exp. needed 65K (Downtown)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: klm@seguelegal.com [?]
Date: 2008-11-26, 2:28PM EST



Summary: Secondary responsibility for promoting and implementing Records Management Procedures and Policies and adherence of firm retention policies. Supervises Records staff, including training, quality control and maintaining client service focus and satisfaction. Provides control of all on-site and off-site client and firm files and electronic records which have been labeled with client matter information.

Job Description: include the following (Other duties may be assigned): Maintains control and updates files assigned to section; sorts and files; handles phone requests to locate and retrieve documents; maintains active records database including data entry for new matters; answers phone requests from outside parties and directs to lawyer involved in a particular matter.

Supervisory Responsibilities: Supervises requests, retrieval and delivery of files and documents both on-site and off-site in warehouse; trains staff; delegates work to specific filing sections; makes supervisory decisions based on good judgment; counsels and disciplines staff; provides suggestions and recommendations for the improvement of existing systems and procedures.

Key to this spot is must of done evaluations, wrote up employee. A real supervisor, handle issues with employees..

25 person department. two Supervisors and one manager...A lot of responsiblity.

Requirements:: Experience and expertise in Records Supervision; client service-oriented; excellent organization and communication skills; ability to prioritize multiple projects; ability to train with great attention to detail; qualities necessary to motivate staff performing routine assignments.

Education and/or Experience: Five years supervisory experience in Records legal environment required.

Qualified candidates please forward resume as an attachment in MSWord to klm@seguelegal.com

Anonymous said...

CAREERS | NOVEMBER 26, 2008, 3:04 A.M. ET

With Times Tight, Even Lawyers Get Outsourced


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By NIRAJ SHETH in Mumbai and NATHAN KOPPEL in New York

As the economic crisis deepens in the U.S., some lawyers are making out well—in India.

At the Mumbai subsidiary of outsourcer Pangea3 LLC, rows of Indian lawyers at new computers pore over contracts, covenants and other financial documents. They're working for Wall Street banks fighting lawsuits filed in the U.S. by homeowners, investors and shareholders after the subprime-mortgage crunch.

As the ailing U.S. economy prompts companies to cut costs, it also has spawned legal problems. As a result, clients are pressuring the law firms they hire to trim fees.



Dhiraj Singh for The Wall Street Journal.
A worker at Indian outsourcing firm Pangea3.
Click image to view slideshow

That means more routine work like legal research, due diligence and document review is being done in India at roughly half the cost as in the U.S., outsourcers say. Starting associates at big U.S. firms often bill more than $200 an hour. But an experienced lawyer in India bills at $75 to $100 an hour, roughly the bottom rate for some U.S. paralegals.

Legal outsourcing in India currently draws around $250 million in annual revenue, analysts estimate. That's a tiny portion of the $40 billion in revenue for India's technology-outsourcing firms. But legal outsourcing is growing quickly, while tech-outsourcing firms are struggling to grow.

Many important tasks, such as appearing in court or handling witness depositions, can't be outsourced. Still, "we have only seen the beginning," says Sanjay Kamlani, co-chief executive of Pangea3, which is based in New York. "There will be a lot more work coming." The firm has 390 employees, mostly lawyers, in India.

The nature of the work already has changed. When Ankita Mullick joined Pangea3 three years ago from a Mumbai law firm, she spent time researching U.S. laws on drug labeling. This year, she has done work for banks on auction-rate securities, which have been a factor in the crisis on Wall Street. "The sophistication is increasing," says Ms. Mullick.

It helps that Indian and American law both are grounded in the British legal system, Mr. Kamlani says.

Pangea3 says it doubled revenue in the last six months from a year earlier, though it declines to reveal specific figures. Rival Computer Patent Annuities Ltd., with offices in Noida outside New Delhi, plans to have 1,200 Indian lawyers on its payroll by September 2009 and 2,000 by the second half of 2010. CPA, based in the British dependency of Jersey, currently has 450 Indian lawyers.

Forrester Research Inc., Cambridge, Mass., estimates that 35,000 U.S. legal jobs will be moved offshore by 2010 and 79,000 will move by 2015. That's a small portion of the 1.2 million licensed lawyers in the U.S. as of June, according to the American Bar Association. But hiring is down now for junior lawyers in the U.S. as firms struggle with declining demand, says Michael Short, a law-firm consultant with Hildebrandt International Inc.

The outsourcing industry "has built up now with cheap Indian lawyers who are pretty smart doing the sort of work done here by paralegals," says Talat Ansari, a partner at Kelley Drye & Warren LLP in New York. He says Kelley Drye uses lawyers in India to review documents in litigation and to standardize contracts.

Ajay Raju, a partner with Reed Smith LLP in Philadelphia, says his clients increasingly ask about using Indian lawyers. He says Reed Smith isn't convinced legal outsourcers will meet the firm's standards or that outsourcers, which are subject to high turnover, can adequately guard against disclosing confidential client information. Nevertheless, "in light of this economic tsunami, I anticipate stronger pressure...to cut legal costs and find alternative ways to be more efficient, including legal outsourcing," he says. Legal outsourcers say they take measures to ensure security, like using security badges to control access and making sure computers stay put. Most also require employees to sign confidentiality agreements. Though turnover rates are higher in India than the U.S., outsourced attorneys pose no greater risk than the temporary or contract attorneys that would likely be used in the U.S., says Pangea3's Mr. Kamlani.

Mr. Ansari says that since Indian lawyers often aren't licensed in the U.S., they must be closely supervised by U.S. lawyers to comply with ethical norms. As a result, some U.S. firms may feel more comfortable using American temporary or contract attorneys. But Mr. Ansari notes that U.S. temp lawyers typically bill at twice the rate of Indian attorneys.

QuisLex Inc., based in New York, says it is gearing up for more work at its Hyderabad, India, office stemming from the U.S. government bailout of Wall Street. Already this year, the firm has helped U.S. companies facing regulatory investigations about subprime mortgages.

"Any time there is economic fallout, one thing that always comes out is new regulation," says Sirisha Gummaregula, QuisLex's chief operating officer. "That's where we can help the companies out."




© 2008 Dow Jones & Company. All Rights Reserved.
Sale of this Dow Jones WebReprint Service® Article Does Not Constitute Or Imply Any Endorsement

Anonymous said...

I am Tempstrodamus and I will make my predictions for 2009.

--better times ahead in the New Year for temps.

--Tom the Temp will be outsourced to India and replaced by Rahul the Reviewer

--Rates will plummet, in spite of an increase in work as associates continue to be laid off and thousands more Nigerians descend upon NYC seeking work and more law school grads can't find work.

--Roach boy will have an affair with roach girl, but her husband will find out and exterminate him.

--Law firms will realize that outsourcing is not worth the risk and bring the work back to the USA

Anonymous said...

Those animals killed a 13 year old girl and her father just because they were American. It's open hunting season on Americans and British in Mumbai.

Anonymous said...

tempstrodamus. I think your analysis is correct. An increase in work, but not pay because of the oversupply... Plus the Indian bastards.

Anonymous said...

I agree with temptroamus too. Agencies will use the economy to their advantage, and the fearful temps that lurk here will follow like the good little sheeps they are when it comes to rates.

Also, you said: " C) some idiot attorney will get nailed for facilitating the unauthorized practice of law (30% of the temps are greedy and stupid. They’ll let some salesperson sucker them into authorizing the outsourcing nonsense for a 6 figure salary)"

I agree with the above quote . You always need a fall guy (or gal) in situations like this where you are on the bubble of legal ethics. Outsourcing agencies considering legal ethics obligations, discovery rules, etc are close to the line, but not certain, if you read the article, where it is.

Yet, they also want to make money off of the bubble until the line is crossed. In cases like this, they will need fall guys (or gals).

Anonymous said...

How the hell are all these Nigerians getting work prmits here? Seriously? Also, if India and Pakistan go to war, will it get better here agin? The foreigners and the greedy SOB's at the top of law firms and corporations (The ABA can suck it most of all) have destroyed the legal profession.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, using a stupid lawyer as a fall guy/gal isn't a novel concept. It happens fairly often, and there's no shortage of precedent in NYC for aiding and abeting the unauthorized practice of law.

Plus, the courts are probably looking to make an example. It's not like they didn't warn people with city bar opinion.

Anonymous said...

http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2008/11/27/outsourcing-lawyers/

Another “safe” profession gets shipped off to India…

That means more routine work like legal research, due diligence and document review is being done in India at roughly half the cost as in the U.S., outsourcers say. Starting associates at big U.S. firms often bill more than $200 an hour. But an experienced lawyer in India bills at $75 to $100 an hour, roughly the bottom rate for some U.S. paralegals.

Legal outsourcing in India currently draws around $250 million in annual revenue, analysts estimate. That’s a tiny portion of the $40 billion in revenue for India’s technology-outsourcing firms. But legal outsourcing is growing quickly, while tech-outsourcing firms are struggling to grow. [...]

Forrester Research Inc., Cambridge, Mass., estimates that 35,000 U.S. legal jobs will be moved offshore by 2010 and 79,000 will move by 2015. That’s a small portion of the 1.2 million licensed lawyers in the U.S. as of June, according to the American Bar Association. But hiring is down now for junior lawyers in the U.S. as firms struggle with declining demand, says Michael Short, a law-firm consultant with Hildebrandt International Inc. [With Times Tight, Even Lawyers Get Outsourced, Wall Street Journal, November 26, 2008]

I can imagine that in the near future, medical care will entail the patient being hooked up to a diagnostic machine by a cheap Mexican nurse and the results will be analyzed long-distance by an Indian doctor.

Indian radiologists already interpret x-rays.

Anonymous said...

Not for long.

Look up Hennessey's new case. It blows my mind that they're even trying this nonsence. Talk about stupid. I mean I've been to India and wasn't too impressed, but this takes the cake. Running headlong into the medical lobby is not a good idea.

I mean why not outsocure medicine to a country where Polio is still endemic? Seems like a great idea.

Maybe we can outsorce minority rights enforcement to Germany, civic planning to the Italians, military strategy to the French, comedy writing to the Estonians, and rocket science to the Poles. What do you thing?

Anonymous said...

India is filthy. Indians are filthy. Bottom line. They have dots and our jobs.

Anonymous said...

Are the LPOs open today? How many days of clicking did they miss?

--The Clickmeister

Anonymous said...

More tales of employee churn and burn...

http://jobwhore.wordpress.com/

Anonymous said...

Yes, your jobs have gone to India, and elsewhere. Do not underestimate the power of technology to take away your jobs, either. I used to work at a PA based call center, but that call center no longer exists. Those jobs have been replaced by websites, voice recognition programs, and, of course, outsourcing. It was, and is, ironic because one of the women at the call center was from India! Her husband was a computer programmer! I wonder if she, and her husband, went back to India?! It is, after all, where the good jobs are now!

Anonymous said...

You might find this case interesting (Qualcomm vs. Broadband):

http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/07-1545.pdf

It deals with severe penalties for a company that screwed up their e-discovery process. It won't be long until this happens at one of these places that's outsorcing, and some firm or corporation get's nailed.