Friday, February 22, 2008

Former Recruiter Tells It Like It Is

"Many grads struggle stuggle stuggle. Many law schools are simply diploma mills looking to make money. How do I know this???


Because in my corporate gig I dealt with these sad sack attorneys who are having to do temporary attorney work, owed 150K in law school loans, and couldn't find permanent work. Now in their defense, some of them choose to do temporary work (which consists of reviewing documents for 70 hours a week...very mundane work. Trained monkeys could do it), but most of them are forced into the drudgery of temp work to pay their huge law school debts.


Its only about 5 -10% of all law school grads who come out of school to plum, 140K a year jobs with big law firms. Most lawyers are taking 45 K a year jobs or doing temp work and struggling to make ends meet."


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In other news, LSP is staffing a fairly large gig in NYC. Sadly, they are "deflating the rate" to $33 an hour. $35 an hour was the standard rate four years ago. Adjusted for inflation, this rate is pathetic. Frankly, even if the rate was paying market, I wouldn't take it, as I find LSP's Wanda to be someone who is very difficult to deal with.

40 comments:

Mercer Law Sucks said...

It should be noted that this isn't a NYC-only phenomenon. The market is just as bad here in the south even though we don't have insurance defense mills. Life is equally miserable for those of us in rural solo PI firms. Abusive clients, asshole partners, bales of paperwork, etc. Just giving a shout out for all of us shitlaw associates in the south.

Anonymous said...

There is no end in sight to the plummeting salaries. With 10K more lawyers being added each year to the NY market by shysters like NYLS and Hofstra, the glut continues to grow exponentially. I'm actually surprised LSP still pays $33/hr. Nothing is really stopping them from paying $30/hr or even $27/hr. They'll still get deluged with resumes regardless of what pittance they pay. It's an inhuman race to the bottom like we've never seen before.

The costs of going to law school rise every day, kids. From stratospheric tuitions to plummeting shitlaw salaries, the mistakes of going to law school become more expensive. Before too long, we're going to have a new breed of impoverished homeless person on the streets in NYC: the highly educated, yet unemployable toilet JD. NYLS can really put their endowment to use by building homeless shelters for all the JDs they pump out of their unemployment training mill. The can give 1L summer internships to their students serving slop to the thousands of NYLS alum who can't find jobs.

Anonymous said...

Dear Lawyers with Loans,
Seems to me if you even get a $50K job with a small law firm doing actual lawyerly work and building REAL skills a few years later you will be in a much better financial position than a temp attorney. Isn't sticking to temping just to make a few easy bucks screwing you in the long run?? And as for loans, I am a lowly writer but even I can make $60K/year and pay $800/month in loans for my grad school if I live frugally. Just a thought.

Anonymous said...

All you have to do is pick up a newspaper to see that we are an entire nation of sad sacks. Many of us are without healthcare, are extremely uncertain about our retirements, and, given the mortgage crisis, take for granted how lucky we are to have a roof over our heads. Thanks to 7 years of living in fear, we also have a trillion dollar deficit.

Anonymous said...

Well, everything is working against toilet grads now. Offshoring is now taking more and more of the decent entry level jobs for research, doc review + IP and they are constantly looking for new ways to cut us out of the work that was promised by the legal education industry. What a joke....

For most of us, it's either go solo or get out of law. Take your pick, I bit the bullet and got out. No more temp shitholes sharing bathrooms with 100+ other attys or working in the firm and being treated like a retard.

Bye bye law!

Anonymous said...

Things are getting pretty desperate. My boss recently put out an ad for an entry level attorney gig PAYING 45K A YEAR and he received over 200 resumes! How does the ABA justify giving accreditation to shit schools like Drexel. I really feel bad for those Philly temp attorneys. Get ready for a salary plummet!

Anonymous said...

Don't hate on Dean Matasar. He actually went out on a limb and admitted in a newspaper article that the "golden age of law schools" is over. How many other deans have spoken out against their economic interests and did the same?

Anonymous said...

Matasar wrote that article in order to LAMENT the downfall of his pathetic no-fault and unemployment training academy. He didn't write that as a warning to future students. Do you think Matasar is going to lower his 40K tuition because of his divine revelation? ROFL! Matasar is the biggest shylock in all of TTTdom.

Anonymous said...

The ABA doesn't have the balls to take on these schools. Diploma Mills that they are! The latest is that the Dept of Education backed them into a corner and told them they want a solid number. So, the ABA said that they require the Diploma Mills to have a Bar Passage rate of 75% for the last four years. Now, we all went to Lawschool. We all sat through useless lectures. How much did the lectures help, zero! Everyone on the spectrum of Harvard to Cooley went to Barbri, Piper, PMBR, and Micromash to learn the law and pass their Bar. It was in the lawstudent's self interest to pass the Bar regardless of what happend in lawschool. The bottom line is they Diploma Mills get a free ride.

Anonymous said...

Once the bottom really drops out, some enterprising TTT grads will just go ahead and file a class action against them. It's really the only option left if have no career and no hope of ever paying your loans back.

Of course, these poor fools are so emotionally and financially crushed by the law schools, temp agencies and law firms, they can barely get out of bed in the morning, never mind plan complex litigation.

Forcing everyone to work 65 hours per week just to break even takes all of the energy and ability to focus out of their lives.

selling my jd said...

it is tough no doubt... the JD diploma is weak no doubt... the law schools are money making machines.....

we all know the problems... certainly as one enters their 10th or 11th hour of document review on any given day, the problems become clearer...

but what are the solutions ?? exposing the system is a good first step...

also i dispute that a trained monkey could do document review. why would the monkey need to be trained ??? no training and some fruit would work well...

Anonymous said...

Rick "The Prick" Matasar's "Golden Age" might be over, but for him and NYLS, it's turned into a "Diamond Age."

NYLS has so much money, it's unbelievable. $40k/year tuition is but one source of the riches. The property the school sits on in Tribeca is worth a fortune in itself. Didn't they just sell the property the old library was on to a condo developer so the uber-rich would have more apartments in Tribeca? Then they bought the building across Worth Street for the new library. Soon they'll be selling the property where the law school itself sits so the rich cosmopolitans have yet more luxury housing.

The time to sue is now, while NYLS is flush with cash from these property sales. Force them to pay off the massive student loan debt of their hapless and hopeless graduates. Tell Nadine Strossen to find somewhere else to recruit the little Oompa Loompa slave labor for her ACLU pet projects.

(Unfortunately, having Strossen on the staff, as well as the school's physical location in the "hippest" part of town, sitting on a property value diamond mine, make it an unlikely candidate for closure.....)

Can you believe they have the audacity to list TEMP AGENCY contact info in the "Career Services" section of their website? Wow. Pathetic. But indicative of their knowledge that they're ripping people off because of the shoddy prospects of their graduates.

Get ready, Matasar and Strossen - we're coming after you! And as part of our attack, we're gonna rip those big, ugly gold earring things Strossen wears all the time off her ugly ears.....

selling my jd said...

suing the law schools ??? interesting.... certainly a well - timed law suit would be good publicity... would help get the word out....

Anonymous said...

So much shit talking here. First, plans of a sick out/strike, then "plans" to unionize, and now it's sue the law schools. Try accomplishing one goal before setting your sights higher.

Anonymous said...

"Dean Matasar also was dean of the Chicago-Kent College of Law (1991–96). During his tenure, the school’s endowment rose from $5 million to more than $17 million. He was responsible for enhancing the faculty and helping Chicago-Kent establish a reputation as the nation’s leading institution in integrating technology into legal education."

From one toilet to another.

JDWired said...

It's hard NOT to get angry about this. But get it out of the way and move on with your career--most contract attorneys have 80 or 90% of their working lives left--plenty of time to turn things around.

Anonymous said...

Stossen is a typical, loud-mouthed annoying lesbian. I wish that bitch would just keel over and die. She is outspoken on the rights of terrorists, but meanwhile, she makes her living off the scam known as New York Law School. Hypocrisy at its best.

Anonymous said...

Wow. Some of you folks are sick.

Anonymous said...

On a lighter note, some people still aren't aware of the trouble in the legal market....future toileteers perhaps?

http://www.abajournal.com/news/youths_cite_making_money_interest_in_politics_as_reasons_to_attend_law_scho/#When:17:30:00Z

Anonymous said...

7:26PM

Incomprehensible. Equally as silly is thinking spending 3 years in law school will help you in politics- it won't. You're better off getting your MBA if you want to get into politics. You'll network with more professional people. Just because last century's politicians went to law school doesn't mean this century's will.

I've said this before on JDUnderground: law schools sell hope, not a legal education. When you sell hope, you can put a huge price tag on it and sell it no matter what. Nothing will convince these kids that there's no money in law. NOTHING. Even if you did tell them that most people work in shitlaw rather than biglaw and earn 40K-45K with 100K+ in loans, none of them would believe you.

Anonymous said...

I have to say, law school taught me law and how to use it. It's the implied promise of a decent living that is the problem. Things will be getting worse before they get better. good luck everyone time to develop new skills....again....and again...

Anonymous said...

Law school didn't teach you shit except useless anachronistic 18th century common law like the rule against perpetuities and shelley's case. It didn't teach you "law" at all. And it certainly didn't teach you how to "use" it. Have you even graduated yet? I bet not.

selling my jd said...

people ... people.... our anger is completely understandable.... discussions about constitutional law and property have no meaning as one enters their 11th hour of document review... begging to come in on the weekend for the extra cash was not discussed in the 1st year.... yes, the scam that was law school must be exposed..

Anonymous said...

In regard to LSP, they are a very arrogant agency. I am an experienced document reviewer and I have submitted my resume to them on several occasions, but they never even acknowledge any of my e-mails. I have called them to follow up only to be told by the arrogant secretary that the recruiter will contact me only if she is interested in my resume. You never get to speak to these primadonnas, Liz, Wanda etc.
LSP you suck and now you suck even more with your lousy rate.

Anonymous said...

What's disturbing is that the myth is still being spun by these law school schysters....they really should stop their dishonest recruiting and making their fortunes off other people's (largely false) hope and (usually failed) dreams.

Of course colleges and universities love to add law programs, because it's such a cash cow for them. They seldom contemplate, however, whether another law school is needed by the community at large or where the bulk of their graduates are going to find jobs to pay off their $100k plus debt incurred attending their fine instutions. Great, another 350 toileteers cranked out every year, just what the country needs.

It's just another example of how excessive greed is devolving our once proud nation into a third rate country, with plummeting living standards.

In the last 20 years we've gone fro m the first world to the edge of the third world...with NAFTA and global commerce quickly evaporating our once strong middle class. Now licensed professionals with doctorate degrees are competing for crumbs with third world nations, because the US companies want to cut legal costs. How embarassing; now many of the good entry level jobs for the US market are in Mumbai and elsewhere, but not in the United Stats.

We have allowed these jackals to cannibalize our nation, and left it for dead in the hands of cheap, slick talking opportunists like Barrack Obama, who uses the same grotesque techniques that the law schools do, such as selling hope and other false dreams, that he can never deliver upon. Are we just a nation of mush brained suckers now?

Anonymous said...

LSP sucks! What a trashy agency.

Anonymous said...

Wanda Lin and Elizabeth Cass
get my vote for horrible recruiters of the year. Indeed, they believe very much that they are primadonnas. Deal with these characters at your own risk!

Anonymous said...

hey 922,
I'm admitted since 04 and if law school didn't teach you law your an idiot. Yes update your caselaw stupid, and apply it. If you can't do that after law school then your pretty pathetic. It's not that difficult. Not all of us need to write appellate briefs to consider ourselves lawyers. douche.

Anonymous said...

9:07

The what the hell was the point of you going through 3 years of law school? To cut and paste pathetic toilet paper? Do you realize that you could do what you do now with merely 3 months (if that!) of formal training? Law school is a complete waste since 90% of lawyers don't need to sit through 3 years of vapid bullshit to learn how to be a lawyer. Just give us a couple month certificate course on how to file a motion, cut and paste a toilet stip, and plan a field trip to king's supreme.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, there is one option for recent law grads - government work (U.S. Attorneys, DOJ, other D.C. regulatory agencies, and/or the state located counterparts) The pay initially won't near law firms, but the big difference is that rather than having a "name firm" on the resume (in reality spending 4-5 years merely carrying partners' briefcases, so to speak, or in reality only doing doc review in nicer offices and car service each night), you actually are given greater responsibility earlier and build an actual skill base. Not glamorous, and certainly with its own problems - but what is worse, doc review or government work. The other benefit is DOJ offers some sort of tuition assistance because of the huge loans recent grads face. Just an idea, no one else seems to be offering solutins. One might have to go to a state they find dismal and boring, but it might be one way out, particularly if you come from a somewhat known law school.

Anonymous said...

Except that govt agency jobs (even at the state level) are incredibly competitive. You aren't the only one who has figured out that govt is the route to go. They get flooded with resumes just like firms do.

Anonymous said...

whether you're a biglaw associate, doing small firm crap, temping, or whatever, get out of law as soon as you can. i really have no idea how anyone can enjoy this b.s. there are so many other, better things out there to do for people with our skill set.

Anonymous said...

To the above poster:

For what it's worth, I dropped out of law school to become a cop, and I'm pretty miserable (although I have no debt). I think you need to pick your poison. There aren't too many jobs out there that you'll be thrilled to go to every day. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Anonymous said...

But if you hang in there as a cop, you will get promoted and eventually get a pension. Even if you don't last it until then, experience as a cop will open up a lot more doors than a toilet law degree.

All work sucks, but at least being a cop serves the greater good. Of course starting out on the bottom sucks and you will have to suck it up for a while....same as the law or anything else.

Anonymous said...

you people are pathetic

Anonymous said...

And 4:29, you are an abusive pig. Crawl back into your slovenly hole.

Anonymous said...

Ha! everyone will be feeling the burn of this coming economy. 4:29, I will make you my b***h on the soup line, GIVE ME YOUR BREAD! NOW!

Anonymous said...

How much are the temp agencies charging the law firm per hour for the contract attorneys?

Windonfish said...

I'm a 6th year associate at an AmLaw 100 firm.

I have no sympathy for the folks on this blog who think they're being poorly treated by the firms who hire them. To gut check your complaints, consider why you haven't voted with your feet. If your temp law job sucks, do something else. If nothing else pays as well, take a gut check on your objective ability and realize that life is hard. For you and everyone else in this vale of tears.

I'm better paid than you, but 80% o f my dreams are about work and I've canceled more vacations than I've taken. Try making the personal judgment call of telling your family that vacation is gone and you have to eat the cancellation fees because you need to go to work. Autonomy in your work is GREAT, until, umm, you actually have to express autonomy in your work, meaning responsibility.

I'm in agreement that universities over-sell law schools as a cash cow. That's wrong.

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