tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post795768551754410461..comments2024-03-25T04:26:39.471-04:00Comments on Temporary Attorney: The Sweatshop Edition: ABA Law School Tuition Gouging - 2008 Editionhelpme123http://www.blogger.com/profile/09049497942793554030noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-81017020391709063182008-07-22T13:49:00.000-04:002008-07-22T13:49:00.000-04:00I can't help but laugh when I see people complaini...I can't help but laugh when I see people complaining that these law schools lead to nothing but document review jobs and $30K a year job. There should be a internet wide rule that when any one complains like this, they should be forced to put down their gpa and class rank also. Do not complain if you graduated with a 2.6 and were ranked in the bottom third of your class, and if you had a 3.7 and were in the top 10%, apparently you can't interview for a job. It's very difficult to get a $165K job out of law school, everyone knows that, but that doesn't mean you only other option is a job where you are going to be review documents for the next 5 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-35060415758677700232008-06-25T09:48:00.000-04:002008-06-25T09:48:00.000-04:00Yes, law schools are gouging students trying to im...Yes, law schools are gouging students trying to improve their lot in life. These are young, naive kids being told that they will have many job options when they graduate.<BR/><BR/>In fact, only the very top at these diploma mills has any shot at a good job. It's the greedy, misrepresenting law schools that have given rise to this tragedy. Further the ABA is complicit due to its desire to open law schools like Subway sandwich shops.<BR/><BR/>The only reason they charge this much is to fatten the wallets of the law professors deans and other law school staff, as well as provide scholarships for the top of the class. This is subsidized by the bottom students taking out huge loans to pay tuition, when they have no job prospects when they graduate. Further, schools ignore the bottom of the class as untouchables and provide them zero help in finding work.<BR/><BR/>This is the law schools scam, being inflicted upon thousands of young people every year, in the prime of their lives. It's unconscionable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-58679437147282249242008-06-23T01:20:00.000-04:002008-06-23T01:20:00.000-04:00Aah, an intelligent question, Prashant. I'm sorry ...Aah, an intelligent question, Prashant. I'm sorry to say I have no statistics or calculations that would allow a meaningful comparison of '97 entry level attorney wages to '08 entry level attorney wages. However, if I have to guess I would say that in '96 there was a slightly lower demand for law school admissions. Look at it in context. 1996 was roughly the time when John Grisham's novel The Firm was first published. Read the first chapter; the main character was offered about $85k in salary - a big deal back then but unimpressive now. That was the unofficial beginning of the Salary Wars, from then the top law firms offered higher entry level salaries every year. <BR/><BR/>As for the factors for deciding tuition, I think demand has something to do with it. I think that demand is based on the fantasies of greedy students (and I mean that in the kindest possible way, I was a greedy delusional student with fantasies of a new Porsche and a hot penthouse apartment)fueled by wrong perceptions of attorney pay. I did do research about attorney pay before applying to law school, but I did it at the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics. At the time the BLS did not parse out the income of lawyers based on what school they went to or class rank, so it really made it look like lawyers were among the top 5 wealthiest professions. I never noticed that they were averaging the pay of the very wealthy lawyers with the very poor.<BR/><BR/>Students think "Lawyers are rich. I'll go to law school, get rich, and pay off the debt from my enormous salary. No problem." If someone tells you not to go to law school then students start thinking, "But I'm different. I'm smart. I did well in college so I can do well in law school. Who are these people to tell me not to go to law school? They don't know me!" Law tends to select for certain personality types, they tend to be a little cocky.<BR/><BR/>Student hubris drives demand well. I think the private law schools that have investors that provide start up capital would be inclined to price tuition high to try to reach breakeven faster. (Goodness knows law is cheap to teach and getting cheaper every year, so it can't be due to an increase in the costs of 'materials')Maybe one reason they raise tuition is to make people think they are getting a superior product because of the cost. You know, "Prada is better because it costs more, never mind the fact that it's a nylon bag stitched in China..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-63025426205026973272008-06-22T22:01:00.000-04:002008-06-22T22:01:00.000-04:00FYI: Syracuse is $43,000 for the class of 2011http...FYI: Syracuse is $43,000 for the class of 2011<BR/><BR/>http://law.syr.edu/media/documents/2008/3/1L_0809_COA_notice_for_web.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-70080173857894199882008-06-20T22:49:00.000-04:002008-06-20T22:49:00.000-04:00Pace. Don't they make candy? HAHAHAHA.Pace. Don't they make candy? HAHAHAHA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-62197685177523911142008-06-20T17:17:00.000-04:002008-06-20T17:17:00.000-04:00Why didn't you include PACE. It is a new york law...Why didn't you include PACE. It is a new york law schoolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-56216761041931033612008-06-17T23:09:00.000-04:002008-06-17T23:09:00.000-04:00Link to the data in the original post? would like...Link to the data in the original post? would like to find out about other schoolsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-45107442874267221992008-06-17T19:56:00.000-04:002008-06-17T19:56:00.000-04:00It's a known fact that Law School is an expensive ...It's a known fact that Law School is an expensive proposition. I decided to get my grad degree in Engineering and not move into Law.<BR/><BR/>That said, I do have a question on how average pay has moved during the mentioned time-period.<BR/><BR/>That is, if one were to take the median pay in 1997, and adjust for inflation, how does that compare to today's median pay? I think demand/supply is a far more important factor for deciding tuition (and we all know that costs to study Law have decreased over the last few years due to easier access to credit)Prashanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06237361681942701043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-23001924911226488112008-06-17T18:44:00.000-04:002008-06-17T18:44:00.000-04:00If the gov't is dramatically under reporting infla...If the gov't is dramatically under reporting inflation that must mean our stagnant document review rates and shitlaw salaries must really be pathetic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-36375098473766554742008-06-17T18:35:00.000-04:002008-06-17T18:35:00.000-04:00These numbers are ridiculous. If you use the repo...These numbers are ridiculous. If you use the reported CPI as "inflation" to compute what 1997 tuition is in 2008 dollars, you miss the fact that <B>the government is systematically massively underreporting inflation</B>. <BR/><BR/>If inflation were computed today in the same way it was in the 1980s, we would be well into two digits. Sooo, they just change the math to make the so-called "Consumer Price Index" not even remotely represent what a consumer typically buys anymore. If you then use this number to show that law school prices are being jacked up at way disproportionate rates, you are premising your argument on a falsehood (i.e., the fallacy that the CPI represents a true picture of inflation in the economy as a whole). Go buy a carton of milk, a gallon of gas, or a hamburger if you want to see what inflation really looks like, and once you do, you'll realize that the increases in law school tuition are not as out of line as you think. <BR/><BR/>Of course, they're still not worth it at most schools out of the top 20, but that's another question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-39619527571159517702008-06-17T14:49:00.000-04:002008-06-17T14:49:00.000-04:00Yawn, anita is such ooooooold news. The good news...Yawn, anita is such ooooooold news. <BR/><BR/>The good news is that tuition gouging is now becoming a front page story. I guess the law schools will be really worried now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-19020273251639929382008-06-17T14:47:00.000-04:002008-06-17T14:47:00.000-04:00"With a soft legal job market, there are plenty of..."With a soft legal job market, there are plenty of bright, ambitious attorneys who will want to work on your project."<BR/><BR/>-Anita<BR/><BR/>Grist for the temp mill!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-63847413259921912432008-06-17T14:42:00.000-04:002008-06-17T14:42:00.000-04:00It's the law schools that provide the crippling de...It's the law schools that provide the crippling debt and are the entry point for temp work.<BR/><BR/>It's pretty simple. If you stem the surging tide of new lawyers, more poeple will avoid financial and emotional ruin and be able to contribute more fully to society.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-18160995035141018962008-06-17T14:33:00.000-04:002008-06-17T14:33:00.000-04:00Agree. Why doesn't the media report more on some ...Agree. Why doesn't the media report more on some of these sleazy temp agencies that are feeding off of young people? Remember Update Legal and their petty blacklists?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-5167511683874745552008-06-17T14:28:00.000-04:002008-06-17T14:28:00.000-04:00If anybody wants to comment on Anita's article dir...If anybody wants to comment on Anita's article directly, here is her e-mail address: asolow@constantinecannon.com <BR/>I was on her infamous project and I guess her philosophy is do as I say not what I do. This fraud should not be put in charge of anything. On that project, she fostered an environment of distrust and paranoia. The location, Update's space, was a slum. We were on top of each other. The bathrooms were tiny and filthy. The air was stagnant because Ernie would not turn down the thermostat. Acrid smoke belched in the windows from the dive deli downstairs. The Chinese associate was banging one of the slutty temps. She appointed idiots as project leaders and privilege captains. She pasted pictures of owls on the windows of the offices looking out on the floor of temps in order to send the message that we were being watched. She moved people around constantly just because she could.<BR/>Her examples of mismanagement are endless. Bottom line is she is a crass, ugly and incompetent person who doesn't know how to treat people respectfully. And she mistreated temps so well that her sh*t firm, Constantine, made her a partner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-2244869062010382662008-06-17T13:54:00.000-04:002008-06-17T13:54:00.000-04:00When people look at the job statistics it is diffi...When people look at the job statistics it is difficult to clearly judge your prospects based on the half-truths in these numbers.<BR/><BR/>Shouldn't law school statistics be uniform and audited, rather than sugar coated in order get the best US News ranking? The student lose big here, because they cannot get solid information on which to base a potentially life altering decision. As it is now the school comes up with a number on some sort of honor system which it is becoming quite clear, is unreliable at best. In order to get a better ranking they have great a incentive to lie.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-19184509415371554712008-06-17T13:43:00.000-04:002008-06-17T13:43:00.000-04:00Hi, Joan King!Hi, Joan King!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-28610885449145514032008-06-17T13:27:00.000-04:002008-06-17T13:27:00.000-04:0010:19,Making any decision based on emotion rather ...10:19,<BR/><BR/>Making any decision based on emotion rather than a cost-benefit analysis is a recipe for disaster. This is especially true when your decision will cost you $50k+ per year.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the law schools should be more forthcoming about some things. However, most of the blame for a poor decision rests squarely on the shoulders of the decision-maker. Before I went to law school I was able to figure out (roughly) which ones would be a good investment of my time and money, and which ones would not. I went to a school that is providing me with a good return on my investment. If someone did not make the same calculation before going to law school---and instead made their decision based on "emotion"---I have a difficult time feeling sorry for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-37965489940013866752008-06-17T13:02:00.000-04:002008-06-17T13:02:00.000-04:00Improving the work environment? Aside from advisi...Improving the work environment? Aside from advising readers to avoid dark basements and cockroaches, what tips did she provide?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-1558726636928689252008-06-17T12:53:00.000-04:002008-06-17T12:53:00.000-04:00I thought Anita's article was quite good and made ...I thought Anita's article was quite good and made a lot of helpful suggestions about improving the work environment and general conditions for projects. Am I missing something? I wish all law firms took her advice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-43637600354857081642008-06-17T11:50:00.000-04:002008-06-17T11:50:00.000-04:0010:11, you must have graduated second with your in...10:11, you must have graduated second with your intelligent quote "you must have graduate first in your class". Please go back to 6th grade English. Thank you for playing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-52783545958293706472008-06-17T11:43:00.000-04:002008-06-17T11:43:00.000-04:00Anita was a charlatan. She would smile in your fa...Anita was a charlatan. She would smile in your face and then turn around and swing the axe. Don't believe anything this woman says!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-70010060324670111462008-06-17T11:36:00.000-04:002008-06-17T11:36:00.000-04:00anita schools you, she's a partner and you're some...anita schools you, she's a partner and you're some slouching, pizza whoring temp.<BR/><BR/>No contest. She drives a nice car, has no debt and lives in a great apt. You eat ramen for dinner 3 nights a week.<BR/><BR/>There is no contest, oh poor bedeviled temp.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-66271716037884895502008-06-17T11:32:00.000-04:002008-06-17T11:32:00.000-04:00Never mind that article. It's more fun to taunt A...Never mind that article. It's more fun to taunt Anita like a 3 year old.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19584611.post-64250042591547251862008-06-17T11:29:00.000-04:002008-06-17T11:29:00.000-04:00law schools are guilty. but don't forget the unde...law schools are guilty. but don't forget the undergraduate schools that promote government and political science majors which lead to law school applications. they share in the pain. any undergraduate school that promotes law school admission is doing their students a great disservice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com